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I have never competed in any races apart from mates or the postal race and I haven't giving much thought to set ups. In the past I have just set my car up to what it says in the manual, popped on some better tires and maybe the odd hop up because they are a lot stronger i.e:- steering racks, bearings and so on.

In the past I have never really pushed my self, I have just gone to my local skate park and set up a track on the street section and that's great because it has some nice turns with a few humps but with the advent of the postal race and the limitations of " This is it, get round it as fast as you can" I have turned my attention to getting the best out of my car and every time the course changes so does my set up.

So I would love to hear from you. Go in to as much detail as you like, Car, body, ESC, motor, springs etc, and maybe any one out there who doesn't know what to do might get some tips.

Also, what has not worked as well.

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I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Not sure if it'll help anyone, but here are some of my thoughts from the recent postal racing. I've also been looking through vintage magazines for tips.

- You already know this, but tires can make a HUGE difference in how a car performs. New tires are awesome--both the tread patterns and especially the grippy new rubber compounds. You can also balance the handling by putting grippier tires up front and less grippy tires in the rear, or the other way around. The real trick is getting familiar with how your tires react at speed on different surfaces, then when it comes to race time, you already know the limits of grip for that car/tires combo (or a similar surface). And if you keep multiple sets of tires, you'll know which surface they're best on.

- Finding the right pinion gear for the motor and the track can have a huge effect as well. For a shorter track, you want a smaller pinion for snappier accleration, but for a longer track where you'll be hitting higher top speeds, a larger pinion can give you the boost you need at the expense of low-speed acceleration. Hotter motors can run higher pinion gears on the same track because they make up for the lack of acceleration in gearing with raw power (within reason).

- Coming from strictly MSCs for my entire RC life, my first ESC has been a revelation. I have another on the way to try in another old car, because my MSCs are too error-prone and they don't give me fine enough control for racing. The first one is a Traxxas XL-5, and the next is a Hobbywing 1060. I don't have any basis for comparison, so we'll see when the 1060 gets here what it's like. I've heard that the XL-5 brakes are particularly weak, and I agree--definitely not as strong as what I was expecting.

- Bodies are a new frontier for me. I can say that the Brat body is quite heavy, and it really degrades the performance of the Frog chassis. The Grasshopper seems quite happy with a hardbody, although obviously the Hornet is a bit more responsive with its lightweight lexan/pc shell.

- toe in the steering on a 2WD to make it more stable in the straights at the expense of a bit of turning radius. Given that it's 2WD, it should still have stellar handling. I only have 2WD cars so I'm not sure what would be best for a 4WD or FF setup.

- Shocks and springs: Don't take my advice because I run my shocks dry and my springs hard.

- What NOT to do: don't put your timed motor brushes in backwards, and don't overtighten your drive wheels!

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1 hour ago, El Gecko said:

I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Not sure if it'll help anyone, but here are some of my thoughts from the recent postal racing. I've also been looking through vintage magazines for tips.

- You already know this, but tires can make a HUGE difference in how a car performs. New tires are awesome--both the tread patterns and especially the grippy new rubber compounds. You can also balance the handling by putting grippier tires up front and less grippy tires in the rear, or the other way around. The real trick is getting familiar with how your tires react at speed on different surfaces, then when it comes to race time, you already know the limits of grip for that car/tires combo (or a similar surface). And if you keep multiple sets of tires, you'll know which surface they're best on.

- Finding the right pinion gear for the motor and the track can have a huge effect as well. For a shorter track, you want a smaller pinion for snappier accleration, but for a longer track where you'll be hitting higher top speeds, a larger pinion can give you the boost you need at the expense of low-speed acceleration. Hotter motors can run higher pinion gears on the same track because they make up for the lack of acceleration in gearing with raw power (within reason).

- Coming from strictly MSCs for my entire RC life, my first ESC has been a revelation. I have another on the way to try in another old car, because my MSCs are too error-prone and they don't give me fine enough control for racing. The first one is a Traxxas XL-5, and the next is a Hobbywing 1060. I don't have any basis for comparison, so we'll see when the 1060 gets here what it's like. I've heard that the XL-5 brakes are particularly weak, and I agree--definitely not as strong as what I was expecting.

- Bodies are a new frontier for me. I can say that the Brat body is quite heavy, and it really degrades the performance of the Frog chassis. The Grasshopper seems quite happy with a hardbody, although obviously the Hornet is a bit more responsive with its lightweight lexan/pc shell.

- toe in the steering on a 2WD to make it more stable in the straights at the expense of a bit of turning radius. Given that it's 2WD, it should still have stellar handling. I only have 2WD cars so I'm not sure what would be best for a 4WD or FF setup.

- Shocks and springs: Don't take my advice because I run my shocks dry and my springs hard.

- What NOT to do: don't put your timed motor brushes in backwards, and don't overtighten your drive wheels!

I've been using the 10BL60 in one of my chassis and I have found the drag brake to brilliant and to have control over how much punch is a god send. As far as shocks go well that's a tricky one, what works for me is soft springs, 3 hole pistons and 40-45w oil with hard stabilizer bars on both ends. Tires are 60D M-grip front and rear. wheels are toe in with +1Dg camber at the rear and dead straight with +2Dg of camber at the front. I haven't used other pinion yet but I'm using a 20t at the moment and that's why I think I like the faster tracks and the body on my M05 is now a Fiat 500. I like the small round shape, I have added a wing on the back that I have made my self. The ESC is a Max 10 with a 4000kv motor.

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I've never been an expert at setup, although I've raced on-and-off at local club level for years.  In fact I usually choose classes with non-adjustable chassis because I used to hate getting bogged down in setup instead of focussing on racing.  In fact even now, with well over a decade of racing experience behind me, my laptimes are more sensitive to my own lack of driving ability than they are to car setup.  In other words, the best setup car in the world won't make FTD if you keep crashing it into the barriers.

(This of course leads to the controversial topic of a well set up car being easier to drive than one which is completely wrong for the track, but this does depend on driver's preference - some drivers will say that a car is at it's fastest when it is twitchy and hard to drive but some top-grade drivers like a car which is very smooth and predictable).

So - as has been stated, IMO tyres is 90% of setup.  If you have the wrong tyres you'll have a bad race.  It's not just about maximum grip either - IMO too much grip is worse than too little.  You can predict where a car is going to understeer or oversteer and drive with more caution, but having to back off because you keep grip-rolling is a serious frustration, and it gets worse every lap as the tyres get hotter.  When I race my TL01-LA on tarmac I tend to run a gripper tyre on the rear.  Modern race chassis with more mechanical grip might fare better with matched tyres.  Wherever you race, ask the regulars what they run and save yourself the expense of buying tyres that won't work.  If you're racing on home turf then you'll have to experiment.

If I've got a freshly built car or one that hasn't been driven in ages then I'll set it up on the Hudy deck to make sure it's level and even all round.  Even if the camber and toe is way off, I'll set the ride height to 5mm on race tyres before I put it on the deck, otherwise measurements could be meaningless.  I'll go with book settings if I have any, otherwise 5 degrees camber all round and a few degrees toe in on the front.  If I'm lacking steering response on track I can open it out later.  This kind of setup I do in the workshop before a race as it can show up all kinds of problems that might be hard to fix at the track.

After that, I set up the springs.  Admittedly this is where my expertise falters and I generally borrow a setup from other drivers.  But unless I've already got a base that's working for a particular track, I'll tend to start with matched springs front and rear.  Depending on what the car does, I might stiffen the front or soften the rear.  In all my years I don't think I've ever used anything other than standard shock oil and pistons in a touring car, because I don't think I'm fast enough to tell the difference.  Making sure the shocks are full, operating smoothly and free of air bubbles is more important.  You want consistency.

Things like upper and lower arm mounting points, shock angles and the like are way beyond my skill level and for the most part my cars don't have that kind of adjustment.  I will run anti roll bars if I have them, unless I'm struggling for grip.  General advice from a top racer this year is don't run ARBs in the wet, "let the suspension do its job."

Once you're on track, you need to see what the car's doing and make the right adjustments.  That's where I really struggle.  I used to think that grip roll was exclusively the domain of too much front grip, but that's not necessarily the case.  If you lack rear grip then the back end can snap around in a corner and the car might highside like a motorcycle.  Generally full-size cars don't do this and it happens so fast at 1:10 scale it's hard to tell why it's happening.

TT01 racing trucks suffer terrible from grip roll but perversely, adding stiffer front springs makes it worse.  I still don't understand why this is.  The main differences between a race rig and a Tt01 tourer are high-profile tyres and higher and further forward COG from the body, so perhaps stiffening the front springs forces the tyre to do more work, making it deform and flip the rig over?  I really have no idea.  Unfortunately at our local club we aren't allowed to glue the outer edge of the tyres, as that's a tried and tested way of reducing front grip.

In a pinch, and on any surface, you can always do crazy tricks like gluing tyres.  M03 and M05 with Sweep tyres on carpet will grip-roll for a passion, but without Sweep tyres they'll have too much wheelspin.  A ring of superglue around the outer edge is enough to stop the turn-in grip roll without reducing mid-corner traction.

10 hours ago, El Gecko said:

Hotter motors can run higher pinion gears on the same track because they make up for the lack of acceleration in gearing with raw power (within reason).

Quick warning - this may not always be true.  Perhaps with a torquey modern brushless combo you can get away with a larger pinion for extra speed, but generally as you increase the motor power you need to reduce the pinion size (or increase the spur size).

Particularly in the brushed motor days, a lower turn count equals a higher RPM, at the cost of torque.  You get a faster overall speed by fitting smaller pinion because the motor turns a lot faster.  You are "losing" more RPMs in the transmission than before but ultimately you get faster acceleration and higher top speed.  Running too large of a pinion causes the motor to run hot, which will kill the magnets.

Most good brushless motors list a recommended FDR for various conditions so you can quickly home in on the ballpark, then tune for track conditions.

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2wd

Buggy racing in 2wd is very different to 4wd buggy, tyres are very much a make or break item, rear tyres need to be a lot grippier than the fronts, usually very worn tyres are better, as they generate so much front grip that new tyres grip roll. My 2wd buggies use hobbywing xerun 120 speed controllers without and turbo or boost. My team associated b6 runs a 8.5 brushless, the b5m uses a 10.5 brushless. They are plenty fast enough for me. Both run about 2 degrees rear toe in, 2 degrees negative front camber, 1 degree negative rear camber, slight front toe out, if I measure it then it's about 1 degree. I have never really experimented with camber link height, but it is very important for grip levels and jumping smoothly. I run all my cars with shorty low profile lipo. They run standard bodyshell, schumacher minispikes rear, schumacher cut staggers on the front, with the inner rows cut off for less grip.

4wd

My 4wd buggy is a losi xxx4, with a 7.5 brushless motor and shorty but standard height lipo with hobbywing xerun 120. It always used to understeer due to having a shocking amount of steering lock, it had to be drifted around in the early 2000's, recently I gave it a makeover and fixed the issues. It now steers as well as the 2wd buggy, but accelerates a lot better as it has the extra traction. Putting narrow front wheels on made a big difference, the 4wd fronts are not needed. It runs 2 degrees rear toe in, 1 degree negative camber all round, about 1 degree front toe out. I swapped the steering servo to the opposite side, to try and balance out the lighter lipo batteries. It runs standard bodyshell. The rear tyres are Schumacher minispikes, the front tyres are schumacher cut staggers.

Touring car

The touring cars I ran were either schumacher sst axis, axis 2, mission or x-ray t2006. All were setup to factory setting, with brushed systems a nimh batteries. I stopped using them in 2007 when the track went off road only. They all had foam tyres with additive on them, it was full width rear additive, inner quarter on the fronts. The best bodyshell for grip was the hpi honda nsx.

Drift car

I recently changed the x-ray into a drift car, for fun, so removed the front drive belt, front drive shafts, increased the front steering lock and put schumacher front suspension on. It should run about 7 degrees front camber, 5 degrees rear camber, 2 degrees rear toe in and 4 degrees front toe out. It has a pandem r33 bodyshell fitted. It has a 17 turn schumacher brushed motor, a lrp quantum brushed speed controller, mst wheels.

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The main thing is that adding grip or softening the suspension at the front will increase turn in and add oversteer (the tendency for the rear of the car to slide, or the car to spin). Adding grip or softening the suspension at the rear will add understeer (the tendency for the car to drift wide of the intended apex at a corner). All car set-up is basically a compromise between these two attributes. There are a lot of ways of influencing these tendencies (you can influence both through the use of the throttle, for example) and 2WD and 4WD cars react differently to different inputs, but those are the basics. Experiment with these and you will quickly learn what works for your car.

One other thing that might be relevant here, given your mention of a home-made rear wing: aerodynamics play very little part in RC car handling characteristics. Anyone who says otherwise is talking nonsense. The cars are too slow and the alleged aerodynamic surfaces too small to do the job they claim to do. The wings at the front of a 1:10 scale Tamiya F1 car, for example, are purely for show. They have no effect at all on how the car handles and they could be removed without any penalty. The big bucket wings on RC racing cars do have an aero effect, but provide very little downforce and instead are only intended to create drag at the rear of the car in order to provide a degree of directional stability, especially over jumps.

So concentrate on chassis set-up and tyres. Everything else is incidental until you get to about 50mph, when aero starts making a difference.

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I get confused with camber my gadge shows positive and other people say it's negative.

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I typically don't have the spare budget to experiment too much with different tyres, so I usually see what the control tyre is for a given class, and get myself a set of those. Control tyres are typically decided on by committees of experienced racers and are chosen to work on a variety of tracks, so are usually a good bet in my experience. Sometimes you can pick up part-worn sets off Ebay for less than half the price of new ones, which may no longer be at the peak of their performance from a pro's perspective but still have a lot of life in them for bashing and informal racing such as the postals.

I keep my tyre choice consistent across all my cars of a given type, for example all my TCs race on Sorex 36Rs with yellow inserts, all my M-chassis run on S-grips at the rear and 60D radials at the front with blue inserts, etc. This allows me to "copy and paste" setup information between similar chassis, or at least use the setup for one as a basis for another. Like @Yalson , I too find it useful to concentrate my efforts on achieving the right balance between front and rear grip, which I typically fiddle with by changing springs and stabiliser bars.

 

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29 minutes ago, DayRider said:

I get confused with camber my gadge shows positive and other people say it's negative.

What gauge is it, basically you should only need to have negative camber, so the top of the wheels are closer than the bottom. You can use some gauges for front toe angle if you sit a flat piece of metal across the front of the car and use the gauge on the wheels.

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6 minutes ago, Matty36 said:

What gauge is it, basically you should only need to have negative camber, so the top of the wheels are closer than the bottom. You can use some gauges for front toe angle if you sit a flat piece of metal across the front of the car and use the gauge on the wheels.

This is what I mean.

16072036645713924027278449900333.jpg

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That looks like its opposite to what it should be, it looks like it's set to negative 1.5 degrees but isn't, unless it's not for camber but for toe in, it also does ride height so is perfect for touring cars, I used to just set my ride height using a 6mm Allen key under the chassis until it just rested on it. What happens if you move it 90 degrees.

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6 minutes ago, Matty36 said:

That looks like its opposite to what it should be, it looks like it's set to negative 1.5 degrees but isn't, unless it's not for camber but for toe in, it also does ride height so is perfect for touring cars, I used to just set my ride height using a 6mm Allen key under the chassis until it just rested on it. What happens if you move it 90 degrees.

When i set it at 90dg it's at 0 but what's positive is negative, that is why I was like eh? So disregard my setting because it only makes sense to me :blink:

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I see now from googling it, they now all seem to just call it camber, as there are not many times that you will ever need positive camber. I had my gauge made 20 years ago so have grown up with it, modern stuff gets changed along the way. I do quite fancy a setup station and corner weight system, I use 4 kitchen scales to check it for now.

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On 12/5/2020 at 11:07 AM, Mad Ax said:

Once you're on track, you need to see what the car's doing and make the right adjustments.  That's where I really struggle.  I used to think that grip roll was exclusively the domain of too much front grip, but that's not necessarily the case.  If you lack rear grip then the back end can snap around in a corner and the car might highside like a motorcycle.  Generally full-size cars don't do this and it happens so fast at 1:10 scale it's hard to tell why it's happening.

TT01 racing trucks suffer terrible from grip roll but perversely, adding stiffer front springs makes it worse.  I still don't understand why this is.  The main differences between a race rig and a Tt01 tourer are high-profile tyres and higher and further forward COG from the body, so perhaps stiffening the front springs forces the tyre to do more work, making it deform and flip the rig over?  I really have no idea.  Unfortunately at our local club we aren't allowed to glue the outer edge of the tyres, as that's a tried and tested way of reducing front grip.

In a pinch, and on any surface, you can always do crazy tricks like gluing tyres.  M03 and M05 with Sweep tyres on carpet will grip-roll for a passion, but without Sweep tyres they'll have too much wheelspin.  A ring of superglue around the outer edge is enough to stop the turn-in grip roll without reducing mid-corner traction.

Quick warning - this may not always be true.  Perhaps with a torquey modern brushless combo you can get away with a larger pinion for extra speed, but generally as you increase the motor power you need to reduce the pinion size (or increase the spur size).

Particularly in the brushed motor days, a lower turn count equals a higher RPM, at the cost of torque.  You get a faster overall speed by fitting smaller pinion because the motor turns a lot faster.  You are "losing" more RPMs in the transmission than before but ultimately you get faster acceleration and higher top speed.  Running too large of a pinion causes the motor to run hot, which will kill the magnets.

Grip roll is an odd thing. I have never been in a position to experience it myself, as I used to run buggies years ago, rather than your closer-to-scale Tamiya cars and trucks. However, it seems to me that grip roll is a totally different phenomenon from the basic oversteer/understeer dynamic and effectively rules them out altogether.

Oversteer and understeer relate to the ability of a car to hit a theroretical point at the apex of a corner under ideal conditions. Understeer will force the car to "run on" and miss the apex. Oversteer will cause the car to flare its tail out, lose traction and either turn in short of the apex or lose control and spin out. The idea is to balance the car at a point on tbe scale between the two which is advantageous to the personal style of tbe driver.

Grip roll short circuits this by not allowing the car to slide or drift, making both understeer and oversteer impossible or irrelevant. The centrifugal force that forces the understeering car wide and makes the oversteering car spin instead digs the outside tyres of the grip rolling car into the racing surface and its sideways momentum simply rolls it over. This is particularly a problem for "scale" type saloons and trucks, as they have a narrow track (ie they're not very wide in relation to their length), they often have a high centre of gravity (ie they have a tall bodyshell in relation to their width), and often have a lot of grip on already grippy surfaces like carpet.

In relation to @Mad Ax's comment about hardening the front suspension on the truck increasing the problem, this may be because it is the tyres and track surface doing all the work in the grip roll. Having softer front suspension will allow the model to "load up" the affected corner, absorbing some of the sideways momentum contributing to the grip roll. Hardening the suspension under normal circumstances will reduce mechanical grip and allow the model to slide more. But those trucks probably have a high CoG and tyres with high sidewalls that flex enough and contribute enough mechanical grip on their own that they will still grip roll anyway, but now because there is no mechanism absorbing any of the forces, it will now reach a critical point very suddenly and tip over with no warning.

Without actually driving one of these cars I can't really recommend a way of solving grip roll. The idea is so alien to my experience driving 1:10 buggies 30 years ago that it kind of melts my brain. Like modern F1, it could be that modern RC is so specialised in its requirements that the normal theoretical solutions no longer have any relevance. It could be that the driving skills required are completely beyond my understanding. It could just be that you need to keep the cars perfectly on line and drive them in straight lines as much as possible. But where's the fun in that? That's not RC, that's more like maths.

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3 hours ago, Yalson said:

Grip roll is an odd thing. I have never been in a position to experience it myself, as I used to run buggies years ago, rather than your closer-to-scale Tamiya cars and trucks. However, it seems to me that grip roll is a totally different phenomenon from the basic oversteer/understeer dynamic and effectively rules them out altogether.

Oversteer and understeer relate to the ability of a car to hit a theroretical point at the apex of a corner under ideal conditions. Understeer will force the car to "run on" and miss the apex. Oversteer will cause the car to flare its tail out, lose traction and either turn in short of the apex or lose control and spin out. The idea is to balance the car at a point on tbe scale between the two which is advantageous to the personal style of tbe driver.

Grip roll short circuits this by not allowing the car to slide or drift, making both understeer and oversteer impossible or irrelevant. The centrifugal force that forces the understeering car wide and makes the oversteering car spin instead digs the outside tyres of the grip rolling car into the racing surface and its sideways momentum simply rolls it over. This is particularly a problem for "scale" type saloons and trucks, as they have a narrow track (ie they're not very wide in relation to their length), they often have a high centre of gravity (ie they have a tall bodyshell in relation to their width), and often have a lot of grip on already grippy surfaces like carpet.

In relation to @Mad Ax's comment about hardening the front suspension on the truck increasing the problem, this may be because it is the tyres and track surface doing all the work in the grip roll. Having softer front suspension will allow the model to "load up" the affected corner, absorbing some of the sideways momentum contributing to the grip roll. Hardening the suspension under normal circumstances will reduce mechanical grip and allow the model to slide more. But those trucks probably have a high CoG and tyres with high sidewalls that flex enough and contribute enough mechanical grip on their own that they will still grip roll anyway, but now because there is no mechanism absorbing any of the forces, it will now reach a critical point very suddenly and tip over with no warning.

Without actually driving one of these cars I can't really recommend a way of solving grip roll. The idea is so alien to my experience driving 1:10 buggies 30 years ago that it kind of melts my brain. Like modern F1, it could be that modern RC is so specialised in its requirements that the normal theoretical solutions no longer have any relevance. It could be that the driving skills required are completely beyond my understanding. It could just be that you need to keep the cars perfectly on line and drive them in straight lines as much as possible. But where's the fun in that? That's not RC, that's more like maths.

I also came from an offroad background and the only time a car flipped was if you hit a jump wrong or there was something in the terrain that tossed it off its line. True grip rolls are a totally new phenomenon to me, and they've only become apparent with stickier tires on dry tarmac--a combination I've never experienced before.

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Re: grip roll, I've been having some more thoughts about this. If a 1:1 car had as much relative grip at a relative power level to an R/C car, over the same type of terrain (at scale), no one would be able to drive it at its limits. RCs of all kinds are super overpowered and steer a lot better than their 1:1 counterparts (if those counterparts exist). An RC that drives in a "scale" way is really slow, with very soft suspension--a crawler, not a racer.

If you made a 1:1 version of a 1:10 RC and scaled up a 1m tall jump for it, the jump would be 10m tall. So the physics are the same, but we are driving our RCs at hundreds or thousands of scale mph/kph, which would destroy most 1:1 cars. Stadium super trucks use RC ideas and are probably the closest to how an actual RC drives--light weight, long travel suspension, big tires, and insanely fast motors. But even their power to weight ratio doesn't come close to a typical RC.

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19 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

Re: grip roll, I've been having some more thoughts about this. If a 1:1 car had as much relative grip at a relative power level to an R/C car, over the same type of terrain (at scale), no one would be able to drive it at its limits. RCs of all kinds are super overpowered and steer a lot better than their 1:1 counterparts (if those counterparts exist). An RC that drives in a "scale" way is really slow, with very soft suspension--a crawler, not a racer.

If you made a 1:1 version of a 1:10 RC and scaled up a 1m tall jump for it, the jump would be 10m tall. So the physics are the same, but we are driving our RCs at hundreds or thousands of scale mph/kph, which would destroy most 1:1 cars. Stadium super trucks use RC ideas and are probably the closest to how an actual RC drives--light weight, long travel suspension, big tires, and insanely fast motors.

Yeah, the physics of 1:10 RC do not line up with 1:1 cars at all, as the physics always work at 1:1 scale no matter how big the model is. This is also why the aero doesn't work: the 1:10 scale wings – which are not a tenth of the size of 1:1 wings, but one thousandth of the size, as the wing is reduced to a tenth of the size IN ALL THREE DIMENSIONS – work at 1:1 scale, and at that tiny size they are basically ornaments. RC cars also do not have underfloor aero, as they are hollow underneath and their chassis are full of holes. Given that on most racing cars the underfloor elements generate more downforce than the wings on top, this means they are hindered badly.

That said, I have been wondering if it would be possible to create a ground effect underfloor on a Tamiya 1:10 circuit racer, like a TT-02 or something similar. You can't fit proper ground effect venturi tunnels as it has a flat chassis, but there might be other ways.

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