Objective vs nostalgia

[Saito2 6686]

I tread carefully into this observational topic for nostalgia can provoke fiery passion and I do not wish anyone to get burnt. As humans interacting in our little corner of the internet it is natural to find those in agreement with our views and those that challenge them. I have observed the subjects of disagreements have evolved during my time here. A little while back I posted about classic debates. These debates typified the disagreements from earlier times. They were usually arguments of minutiae over specifications of parts and kits like "how many turns does the original Sport Tuned really have?" or "did the Hot Shot ever come with gold plated wheels from the factory?" Today however, I see debates more in line with the quality of Tamiya kits, their pricing or their direction in the market.

Its interesting that there appears to be two camps in these debates. One is highly defensive of Tamiya and all they do. Perhaps this is driven be nostalgia as the Tamiya legacy is ingrained in all of us. It is Tamiyaclub after all. The other camp is tending to be more objective. This camp probably has evolved from those similar to folks in the past who made post calling for Tamiya to "up its game". They seem to be more discriminating but in so doing may appear as cold to those fully immersed in Tamiya nostalgia. The question is, can an enthusiast exist in both camps? Personally, I started in the first camp but at times have found myself in the second. Just because I don't find Tamiya to be faultless does not mean I love or appreciate the part they have in my life any less. Can one realistically accept flaws in something and still love it, just less blindly? I think so.

Its a tricky subject as nostalgia is often a tinted view of the past. Also experiences will always vary. For instance, I have never had "ORV"diff issues in a Hot Shot or Blackfoot, just in a Wild One or FAV. Does that mean everyone else is wrong? No. Judging on the amount of feedback here, its safer to surmise that I simply got lucky with my Blackfoot. Even things I take for granted like plastic bushings=bad was challenged once as someone supported their use. To me, I can't think of a situation where ball bearing aren't better, but this person felt different. Is that ok? Sure it is.   

[Wooders28 4723]

From speaking to a guy at the RC club,  i think there's more than 2 camps.

I'm off road, always have been, so my view is (was?) based on off road cars. Tamiya was and still is, an entry level car, quality and price reflected that. Lots of plastic, self tapping screws, limited gear options, primitive shocks etc, but they are what they are, and do a good job imo.

Tamiya on road where (are?) seemingly ,the polar opposite. The TRF cars, Carbon fibre ,and alloy a plenty, where THE cars to have! 

Off road, i can see some people's point at the upper end of the scale, for the price of an Avante, you can buy a Schumacher L1 evo, and apart from nostalgia, the L1 is a much much better car.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I'm sure everyone is dying to know who advocated for plastic bushings...

[Saito2 6686]

26 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

I'm off road, always have been, so my view is (was?) based on off road cars. Tamiya was and still is, an entry level car, quality and price reflected that. Lots of plastic, self tapping screws, limited gear options, primitive shocks etc, but they are what they are, and do a good job imo.

I agree and this was one of the first subjects where I began to become more objective. About 30 years ago, I used to wonder why you didn't see Tamiya heavily in competition. I (erroneously) felt in the right hands a Tamiya buggy could be just as good as a Associated, Losi or Kyosho example on the track (in the pre-TRF days). Through the years I learned about, not only proper parts support and R&D but also the material choices and design choices that made earlier Tamiyas unsuited to competition. In other words there was a reason they weren't common on the grid. This view of course met with resistance from diehard Tamiya followers. Its my current view that Tamiya's failed or rather questionable ventures into competition off road earlier on are still great vehicles even if they didn't hit their intended targets but I won't blindly believe they were "just as good" as their contemporaries. 

25 minutes ago, speedy_w_beans said:

I'm sure everyone is dying to know who advocated for plastic bushings...

I admit, at first it was mildly irritating/bewildering as the advocacy of bearing usage is pretty much universal on the forum and to see this oft repeated truism challenged was perplexing. Still, opinions and viewpoints must be considered lest this place become an echo chamber.

   

[Ryz82 160]

1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

I'm off road, always have been, so my view is (was?) based on off road cars. Tamiya was and still is, an entry level car, quality and price reflected that. Lots of plastic, self tapping screws, limited gear options, primitive shocks etc, but they are what they are, and do a good job imo.

As someone who treats this as a purely recreational hobby; half a dozen or so cars (mostly off-road), never runs in competitions/meets, only local park/car-park bashing, can go months without running any cars at all, i find this perfectly acceptable also.

1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

Off road, i can see some people's point at the upper end of the scale, for the price of an Avante, you can buy a Schumacher L1 evo, and apart from nostalgia, the L1 is a much much better car.

I think at a certain point, one has to also ask what they are wanting to get (or expect) out of their hobby ? And it might not necessarily be nostalgia that sways the argument. Personally (subjectively) i find a lot of modern buggies (including Tamiya) to be very bland looking and almost cookie cutter in appearance; and since I'm not looking to be competitive or squeeze the last bit of performance out of every component, I'll continue to lean towards the unique or visually interesting aspects - and willingly accept the limitations that may bring.

[mud4fun 1696]

I'm in both camps too!

I have ZERO interest in touring cars/on road racing so I despair that Tamiya (in the mid 90's) switched all their efforts to that part of the RC scene. My first love is buggies and I despair that Tamiya just gave up on them..

BTW I have never had an issue with ORV diffs either and I've run mine pretty hard over the years with 14T motors and 8.4v batteries.....

I also believe that plastic bushings are fine on a cheap kit like a Grasshopper, if they keep the price down so that a child might get a kit for xmas that would otherwise be out of their budget. The plastic bushings last about 50 hrs use and by then the kids will either be hooked on the hobby or will have given up and moved onto something else. If they are hooked then they can get bearings or in all likelihood will get another kit. 

 

 

 

[markbt73 5316]

2 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

I'm sure everyone is dying to know who advocated for plastic bushings...

Me, for beach running, and also for cars that are primarily shelfers and get run once in a blue moon. In either case, why waste the money on bearings?

[Saito2 6686]

27 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Me, for beach running, and also for cars that are primarily shelfers and get run once in a blue moon. In either case, why waste the money on bearings?

I wasn't directly referring to you but I vaguely recall that. The individual I was thinking about was heavily into running vintage buggies as close to original as possible with no deviations from a stock build.

[87lc2 2666]

Plastic/bronze bushings are actually nice to have in mud trucks/trail trucks that see a lot of water, keeps me from tearing them down so often to replace the bearings.  Other than that, you'd have to be nuts to think bearings aren't the way to go

As far as the original topic, I would say I'm in both camps for sure.  I have a strong nostalgic feeling for Tamiya, but I can also recognize faults where they exist.  These days I recognize Tamiya & the RC hobby for what it is - a hobby and way to relieve stress and get enjoyment out of building/playing with something.  If an RC comes out that I like or think I can get enjoyment out of I buy it, regardless of brand.  Case and point, I now own a few Traxxas vehicles and I looked down on them (for no good reason) for years.  I also just pre-ordered my first ever Losi vehicle, the LMT.  Didn't matter who made it, I would have bought it from them.  

Tamiya will always have a special place in my heart and always be my favorite RC brand.  I would say that my Tamiya vehicles hold more value to me than others, can't really put my finger on why, but that's the way it is.  Maybe because when I think of them I see the awesome box art in my head, or remeber my father'r originals from when I was young, there's just something about Tamiya that speaks to me and I hold it above all other brands.  On the other hand there are some Tamiya vehicles that I would never have any interest in and just wouldnt buy, that's my choice and the choice of every other hobbyist out there.  The beauty of a free market economy.

[Juggular 4964]

4 hours ago, Saito2 said:

I have never had "ORV"diff issues in a Hot Shot or Blackfoot, just in a Wild One or FAV

Me too!  Both Blackfoot and FAV are vintages, but only FAV makes noise. 

 

As for different camps?  Is this your first love?  Then you are in the first camp.  I'm sure everybody washed their first cars like every week? It didn't matter if it was the cheapest car on the market. It's like that. First love... there is nothing sweeter.  You've dated some more?  Well, your first love doesn't change, but you are less hot about it.  

 

Nylon bushings are actually tiny bit better than bronze bushings when it comes to rolling resistance.  But nylon would wear out faster, allowing sand to penetrate and grind on the axles.  I believe Broze is a better sealer because it lasts longer.  Eventually, in either case, sand would get in, axles get thinner from the sand, and bearings won't fit. 

Rubber shielded bearings are cheap enough that you can just toss them after a few runs.  (I have thought about punching holes on paper and then use few sheets of them as extra sand covers even on rubber shielded bearings... but have not tried it) 

 

[c64orinoco 667]

7 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Can one realistically accept flaws in something and still love it, just less blindly? I think so.

My real life car is an Alfa Romeo, so yes one can still accept flaws and still love it.

As for RC cars - I have 11 Tamiya cars and one Kyosho (Mini-Z). Yes, I love Tamiya with all tha entails, but I do enjoy other well-made cars too. I just like Tamiya more from a a nostalgic point of view.

[t3garett 268]

2 hours ago, c64orinoco said:

My real life car is an Alfa Romeo, so yes one can still accept flaws and still love it.

As for RC cars - I have 11 Tamiya cars and one Kyosho (Mini-Z). Yes, I love Tamiya with all tha entails, but I do enjoy other well-made cars too. I just like Tamiya more from a a nostalgic point of view.

I have 3 alfa romeos and daily drive two of them.  So good on you !!! I not only accept flaws but I actually appreciate them they are parts of the cars identity. Same goes for my tamiyas. I appreciate their flaws.

[Alwb68 125]

Hi, I think the tentative start to your subject says it all. One can express an opinion, but then expect the torrent of response whether it’s positive or negative.

I think the positive for Tamiya is that as a brand they have got longevity. Whether they make the best car or not, they are a company that keeps going. And the re-releases mean that you can get that old car going again or even have a few spares.

Okay so the purists are up in arms !! Or someone doesn’t paint it box art.

Social media platforms should be used wisely. Don’t shoot down that person for doing it differently, badly or expensively.

No Tamiya aren’t the most competitive, I don’t think they’re supposed to be. Not in a Formula 1 car way. Tamiya’s are inclusive from the starter kit to the expensive. You pay your money, you take you choice.

I also think  on the subject of flaws, as has already been said, we’ve all bought a 1-1 car that is flawed. With Tamiya it’s just at 1/10 or 1/12 the scale. I sometimes see cars that are so highly modded or hopped up, I wonder why they bought the car in the first place.

Just enjoy. 

 

[Rich_8717 114]

I think a lot of the 'issues' we read about on here stem from the fact that TamiyaClub is purely about the R/C side of Tamiya when in reality the R/C stuff isn't really their main business focus in the rest of the the world nowadays. In most countries Tamiya are known for their detailed static models or their consumables (paint, glue etc) and it appears in the east they are most popular for the mini 4wd racing scene which pretty much doesn't exist in Europe. Basically I feel that what we want as nostalgic r/c enthusiasts doesn't appear to match what Tamiya want to be known for in the modern day, or at least they think it's not the best way for them to make the business successful in the future and that has created a dis-connect between Tamiya and their loyal r/c fans. From their point of view, why focus on making a few middle aged men happy with a limited number of large, expensive kits when they can sell higher volumes of smaller ones to a younger generation? If we are honest Tamiya haven't made much effort to appeal or relate to the western world for the last 20 years, they are very stubborn in terms of their R/C technology (refusing to adapt to lipo for example) and it shows in their lack luster kits we've seen over the past few years (endless bland TT02 based cars). They very rarely innovate in the r/c world anymore they choose to play it safe, and when they do innovate (dual rider for example) it's too much directed to the Japanese market for any of us to want it.

The other problem is that R/C as whole has moved on from where it was when Tamiya originally started making the kits we all love and they haven't adapted. They had to decide if they we going to go the aggressive 'basher' route to compete with brands like Traxxas and HPI or go back to their roots and make super detailed scale models that can be driven, unfortunately they have ended up somewhere in the middle leaving no one happy, their scale r/c models are boring, their bashing kits are too fragile and all that's left are the few die hard enthusiasts waiting on re-releases of kits from 30 years ago.

Another way to look at it, if your 12 year old self was able to travel into the future and went into a hobby shop to choose their first r/c car today, what are the chances you would pick a modern day Tamiya kit?... the top 5 best selling Tamiya kits this year are all re-releases.....

[junkmunki 846]

I sit in both camps, but i am definitely more onroad than offroad as my showroom will attest.

From the nostalgic point, I love the precision of the early models with the metal chassis, and i have to confess to being a bit OCD with the painting and decals. If its not on the box, its not on the model.

But, i am also in the camp where i can see that Tamiya have to move with the times and produce what the masses want, otherwise they would be out of business. The all plastic basher kits might be a step down from the quality of old, but i would rather run them than spend an hour looking for the rare parts i just knocked off the vintage car i was running.

J

[Dakratfink 967]

13 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Me, for beach running, and also for cars that are primarily shelfers and get run once in a blue moon. In either case, why waste the money on bearings?

I’d still prefer brass oillite bushings to plastic but . Even though brass may wear better , plastic may be lower friction 

[Dakratfink 967]

I’ll use my 1:1 Miata as a counterpoint to Nostalgia vs Objective.  
At the time the car was built as new  it was a nostalgic nod to the British roadsters of the 50-70s but with “modern” (1990) reliability and technology.  The experience of a no frills, open air, direct feedback of the road experience, but it also starts every time you turn the key , the lights work, and keeps most of its fluids inside instead of on your garage floor. 
Driving it today is yet another level of throwback. Throwback to the nostalgia Mazda was trying to engineer at the time as well as a throwback to the era it was built in.  
I feel in a lot of ways driving a Tamiya Re Re with modern electronics is the RC equivalent of that experience. 
 When my Miata was new , and I was in high school I did not appreciate things like handling, and a pure driver’s car. I was into going fast in a straight line and American V8 muscle.  
I have grown up a lot since then and I understand what I was missing the first time around when I drive a Gen 1 Miata in the 21st century. 
In terms of RC. I never owned a Tamiya in first go round in the hobby.. my dad and I mostly races Kyosho, Yokomo and Associated cars.  My dad paid for the cars and he ( and I by default) perceived Tamiya not a great Value in terms of performance per dollar.  Even when he got me a monster truck for fun bashing he went with a Kyosho Monster Vette because he was won over by the build quality of our optima Mid. We  both appreciated the Clod Buster for the powerhouse and marvel of engineering it was at the time, but could not justify the cost.

These days I have a re re midnight Pumpkin and an original Hornet. When I drive them both ( on modern lipo power feeding a silver can) I get a sense of what the Tamiya  experience. I “get” the simplicity and fun of driving what is objectively a poor handling but infinitely fun car. You learn to drive within the limits of the chassis and get the best out of it you can. And not worry about flipping and crashing it ( because you will) 

My G6-01, though, that rig is objectively Great. It is unique, innovative and one of the since most fun and capable RCs I have ever driven . 

[DayRider 311]

I like Tamiya, they are what they are! A good baseline. I think it's more about what you want to get out of it. I can honestly say that every kit I have built, at first, always ran bad. You have to tweak them and add hop up to get them where you want them and at the end of the day they know that is what you will do. And if you don't like them, get something else but they got you into it didn't they?

[Mechanic AH 581]

I'm fond of the '80s until early '90s Tamiya period. After the Blitzer Beetle in '93, I think Tamiya's market really shifted and I felt Tamiya just heavily focused on on-road. So when a re-re comes out from that period, I just but it for the nostalgia.

Post early '90s, the on-road cars I like for objective reasons. I really don't know of other brands that do good detailing and historically representations of on-road cars on the same volume (or level) as well as Tamiya. I also don't intend to race so I don't need to get into TRFs or other race brands.

I have my limits when it comes to Tamiya-nostalgia. I'll buy a kit but won't go all out upgrading with shiny hop-up parts. I might get some upgrades that replace parts that break easily (and always metal bearings). I think Tamiya is business smart here by selling unimproved re-res but then having another extensive product line of hop-ups/upgrades for the consumers to spend more money on.

On a separate note, Kyosho comes to mind and I purchased some of their re-res both for nostalgia and objective reasons. They have the racing history, some parts are thoughtfully improved, great era handling and they are relatively durable. I feel like have more confidence bashing a Kyosho.

 

 

 

 

 

[Killajb 1546]

I can see both sides of this argument.   I love the nostalgia from archaic designs such as my Blackfoot, Monster Beetle.  Yes, plastic bushings aren't my thing, and I've upgraded to a MIP diff on one and used gearbox braces on the other.. but the price point for me was still reasonable  enough to justify the  fun.

 

Ditto with my Wild One.  The kit was low cost and a set of bearings and a Sport Tuned motor were just icing on the cake for me.  

 

On the other hand, my issues arise when speaking of kits like the VQS.  I certainly respect those who have purchased and enjoy them, but for me.. the price doesn't justify a mere silver can motor and lingering durability issues.

 

Tamiya is discontinuing many of the cars I thought were great, fun-to-drive bargains that would capture both the nostalgic fanbase as well as those new to the hobby.  There are far too many polarizing models offered these days and I see my local hobby shops here in Tokyo stocked to the roof with XB models that won't sell while Kyosho can't seem to make models fast enough.

[Mad Ax 9329]

I'm another who puts myself in both camps.  I consider myself a Tamiya fan first and an RC fan second.  If I fancy building something new then I always go first for the Tamiya section, and only if I can't find anything in there do I look within other brands.  But recently I've found it hard to get what I want from Tamiya, so I've bought more and more other brands over the last couple of years.

Sometimes it's hard to love Tamiya when the competition has moved on so much.  In the 80s and 90s Tamiya were as robust as the competition, they innovated and their stuff appealed to us as kids, in the same way the re-res still appeal to us now.  However the rise of cheaper brands like Maverick and FTX has pushed Tamiya out of the marketplace of today's kids.  The designs might not appeal to us older fans but they're what today's kids want.  You could still convince a newcomer to go Tamiya if it was either cheaper or more robust or better specced, but most RTRs today beat Tamiya on all three.  It's very hard to objectively sell a Grasshopper or Rising Fighter or Super Hotshot to someone who wants an FTX Vantage or Outlaw, because the FTX will be cheaper, better-spec'd and suffer no more breakages.

When you consider the flaws that have made it into modern production runs, like the Blackfoot transmission or the Frog front hubs, it's no wonder that people outside of the Tamiya nostalgia circles consider the brand to be an overprice poor-quality has-been trading on "fanboy" nostalgia.  They might actually have a point.  And while we might argue that the Blackfoot transmission was actually OK first time around, and is OK if used in the same way it would have been used first time around, as the re-releases intend, there is actually nothing in the marketing blurb that informs a first-time buyer that a Blackfoot is intended as a nostalgic interest item and shouldn't be treated the same way as a modern truggy.

I think the last few threads on here have shown how hard it is to actually put Tamiya love into words and sell that to someone.  You either get it or you don't, but to see if you get it you have to buy first, and if you buy and don't get it, might you be justified in feeling ripped off?

[markbt73 5316]

All my nostalgia towards Tamiya kits, in terms of "I used to have one of those and now I want another," has been well satisfied, either by re-issues or originals (or, in the case of my Boomerang, a blend of both). There are a few "I always thought those looked cool, I wonder what they're like to build and drive" that I still want to find.

But I don't really judge them objectively either, and certainly not against other market offerings. I admire Tamiya for, with a few exceptions, staying off the "bigger faster more-er" bandwagon. I myself rode that wagon for a brief time, hated it, and jumped right off again. So the idea of enjoying a model within its limitations appeals to me, and feels natural.

What I'm really looking for isn't nostalgia or objective performance; it's what James May would call "the fizz." (Despite the less-than-entirely-family-friendly origins of the term, we all know what he means.) I want a kit that makes me want to build it, want to drive it; I want to grin like an idiot when it spins out in the dirt or lands a perfect jump. I want cars that make me reach out and squish the suspension up and down when I walk past the shelf, or pick them up and idly spin a wheel, just to hold it in my hands for a minute.

And if I can get that, I don't care how old the kit or the design is, or who made it. It's just that most modern "optimized for performance" designs don't give me that.

[mud4fun 1696]

I've just ordered a new Schumacher 2wd buggy for my Xmas present to myself. First new car for me in 15 years. I will be interested to see how it performs and how easy it is to get spares for and maintain. That may yet change or re-enforce my views.

[Mrowka 496]

I didn't have a buggy when I was a kid during the 1980s, and I have no nostalgia for those days at all.

I suppose that I like Tamiya because I like the way they look, like a more or less scale buggy, but I don't have much loyalty to Tamiya or any other brand.

[SuperChamp82 743]

Another superb thread @Saito2 👏

+1 both camps - nostalgia + objectivity 

+1 on road and off road - at least from 76 to 86 with a few more recent additions 

+100 loving something despite (often because of) flaws 

A few idle thoughts:

- if all Tamiya kits were spot on, first time TC would exhaust its most valuable resource ... perfectionist grumbling 😂

- early bronze / nylon bearings slowed glass cannons down as much as saved cost ... be grateful + enjoy 

- ditto most complaints about diffs, gears and joints 

- a clinical driving experience is rarely as much fun as ironing out the flaws / or just leaving them + seeing if you’ve the talent to compensate 

- the fact Tamiya are still alive + kicking when many other superb marques lost their way (Eidai, Otaki, Marui etc) shouldn’t be overlooked when (legitimately) complaining about a current lack of innovation 

- very few 1:1 modern supercars don’t have huge flaws ... but people (not me) still happily spend millions 

- getting (and staying) married is ideal for adoring, creating and swerving flaws 😇