Just built a Schumacher..........

[Finnsllc 917]

Preface: I love Tamiya, have 20 complete kits all running and all ran. From RERE super shot to M series to modern buggies, Higher end and entry level. I have been a Tamiya hobbyist since 1985. Now i will admit my long love for Tamiya has probably put blinders on my eyes as to the options and the advancements within the RC community.  Im still trying to get  a 201 even though i have 3 dn-01s, a db-01rrr, db-02, 2 top force and so on. I have no reason to bash the brand that has kept me happy over the last 30 years, nor am i trying to. I say this to limit the comments that will create a negative connotation to my post. I havent truly understood the differences between Tamiya and the modern kit until now..

My amazing daughter(12 years old) batted her eyes and got grandpa to buy me a Schumacher Cougar KD for the holiday. LOVE HER. Anyway, I was really impressed with the packaging upon opening the box, the organized system, the pre cut body and wing. The alloy parts, the carbon fiber parts, the alloy sub body. The step by step parts bags, the incredibly clear instructions, the quality of the feel of the build. its heavy and solid and just a totally different feel from tamiya.   

Im a buggy guy so i suppose that Im in a way saying this all from that perspective. I mean i really loved doing my m chassis's, i enjoyed doing my RERE kits  frog, supershot, hornet, grasshopper, brat, blackfoot and  TF. Im certainly not saying that Tamiya is bad but i have to acknowledge that as a kit, the schumacher is amazing. Im not sure where i can have a reasonable comparison between the schumacher build i just did and many many Tamiya builds i have done. 

Granted i havent gone to customization, or 3d printing or significant chassis and body adjustments. Some of the work here on the site is absolutely amazing.   Perhaps someday i will get there. Members here are incedible with what they can do. Im focusing more on the box kit build and my immediate recognition of something is way way different.

The weight, the carbon, the alloy, the solid feel of the chassis. I am well aware we can all "upgrade"our kits. But out of the box....... Im quite impressed. The Tamiya argument of part support, and to some, overpriced reissued that we all want but cant justify spending the coin for a plastic kit without manufacturer support, this schumacher build was far beyond any stock build ive done. 

I AM NOT LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH ANYONE. I AM ONLY CONTRIBUTING MY THOUGHTS AFTER BUILDING THIS KIT  

[Jonathon Gillham 4605]

I know what you mean about those builds. The only way you'll get close with Tamiya is their onroad range.  I don't have any Schumacher cars but have had Kyosho and currenty have Ae and Hot Bodies race buggies, and can compare to a TA07, FF04 Evo and TRF102. The TRF cars and Kyosho are very similar, they go together so well, nice carbon and alloy everything. The TA07 is brilliant how it goes together but is obviously a step below the TRF cars. 

HB and Ae are a step below TRF in my experience, they just don't go together as well despite having carbon and alloy everything.

I think everyone on here needs to buy a TRF kit once in their life to experience the build.

[Finnsllc 917]

This Schumacher is just so different. 

[DeadMeat666 1675]

31 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

 

I think everyone on here needs to buy a TRF kit once in their life to experience the build.

Does the TB Evo line qualify as TRF kits in the context you're referring to here? 

[Finnsllc 917]

@DeadMeat666 what do u mean? You are comparing an onroad to buggy?  

[Jonathon Gillham 4605]

11 minutes ago, DeadMeat666 said:

Does the TB Evo line qualify as TRF kits in the context you're referring to here? 

Yes it does, I'd also count the FF Evo line or the TA07MS. 

5 minutes ago, Finnsllc said:

@DeadMeat666 what do u mean? You are comparing an onroad to buggy?  

Its the easiest comparison for what a modern TRF car would be like compared to another manufacturer. The way they go together, quality of materials etc is what matters to me, not the type of car especially since Tamiya don't make TRF buggies anymore, and even if you get a TRF201 thats basically an Ae RC10 B4 so not exactly modern. I think the best approximation of a modern TRF buggy would be building a Kyosho RB7 or ZX7, the quality of parts etc is very similar to Tamiya's top shelf. But there are probably others like XRay, Schumacher etc which are just as good

[Finnsllc 917]

i was just making a point of the incredible differece between the Schumacher kit i just built and many Tamiya kits i have built  @Jonathon Gillham

 

[c64orinoco 667]

Whats the difference in price between the Schumacher and a Tamiya? I know the final driving quality might not compare, but are the prices of the kit equivalent?

[Finnsllc 917]

300 US 

[simalarion 2196]

Well for what i know after a short google search they are pricy either way, so you can compare them with quite expensive Tamiya kits. Cost more than Top-Force (when that was in stock ofc), you could actually add the Hop-Up Damper on the Top-Force price

[Jonathon Gillham 4605]

1 hour ago, Finnsllc said:

i was just making a point of the incredible differece between the Schumacher kit i just built and many Tamiya kits i have built  @Jonathon Gillham

 

Yes I agree, a Schumacher buggy will be a far better build than a Tamiya buggy. My point was to look wider and now build a TRF103 or TRF420 and compare, as that would be a better comparison. I have never built a Schumacher car but have built a few from other manufacturers and I understand where you're coming from

[Lee76 638]

I’ve not built one, but live near the head office and have been in a few times. I know a bunch of guys that do race meets, as enthusiasts they all started racing Tamiya because they bought the kits they loved, then as parts became broken and people became more competitive they all migrated to Schumacher, simply because you can buy all the parts cheaply and bang for buck the Schumachers were more competitive. There’s a reason some people buy tamiya kits to break them and sell on line and with Schumacher there’s no need since all the spares can be bought direct, apart from the very very old models, but unlike tamiya, there’s no real sentimentality, if you have an old kit you just scrap it/sell it on and migrate to a newer chassis. So I see them as more functional tools for those interested in the competition more than the car. For me though, the looks do nothing for me, even the guys that race them just rattle can a solid colour and don’t really care what they look like.

[mud4fun 1696]

I have also just built a Schumacher, I built a Cougar Laydown, just finished last night.

I also loved the step by step parts bags, the detailed instructions and the quality of the all the components. 

The quality, ruggedness and strength of the components, plastics and fittings is leagues better than Tamiya.

I am a buggy fan too and have many Tamiyas including Egress, Avante2001 and Vanquish. While I have not yet run the Schumacher I can confirm that the design and quality of parts is far superior to any of the premium Tamiya buggies, way stronger and more rugged than the Egress. I can't wait to use it in anger.

My Cougar Laydown cost me £290 (plus tyres, motor, pinion etc). That is less than the re-re VQS is selling for and way less than the price of TRF buggies and I have no doubt that the Schumacher is the superior buggy just on design, strength and quality of materials used.

I have been blinded by my love of Tamiya and now realise my mistake. I should not have bothered spending all the money I did on my Tamiya buggies, should have just bought a Schumacher years ago. The last time I owned a Schumacher (nearly 30yrs ago) the design and quality was not that different to my (then new) Egress etc but it seems Tamiya have stood still and made no further development or improvements in the last few decades while the competition has surged ahead? I've been truly shocked at the difference in quality of parts and design.

The only negative so far for me regards the Cougar is that it is more complicated than a Tamiya buggy and therefore takes alot more time to build (eg. all the parts that allow for adjustability in toe in, camber, anti-squat etc on rear wishbones), requires more strength to tighten up the M3 screws into the engineering plastic (vs the Tamiya method of using self tappers into soft plastic), having to drill out holes in shock caps and the 100% use of socket head screws that need allen keys. Even though I have the correct allen key drivers it still hurt my hands after a few hours of doing them all up. The actual build of the buggy was not as enjoyable as a Typical Tamiya BUT the positives far outweigh the negatives and that is before I've even driven it in anger. (I have done a few test runs only at this point)

BTW @Jonathon Gillham I know what you mean with comparing the schumacher to a TRF BUT I would say that from what I know of Tamiya prices then I think the Schumachers are significantly cheaper than the TRF's, certainly in the UK so a TRF would not be in same price market as a Schumacher even the 4WD L1 Evo is only £400'ish? So yeah the design, quality of parts and performance may be similar but I think the schumachers are actually cheaper? Also TRF's are pretty rare (even when new) whereas the schumachers are off the shelf and common here.

Sad to say but I have realised I have been a bit of an idiot in my blind love of Tamiya over the decades, especially in the last 20 yrs. Depending on how the schumacher performs and reliability etc I may well never buy a Tamiya buggy again. I will probably be getting my daughters schumacher buggies in 2021 too. 

 

[Lee76 638]

3 hours ago, Finnsllc said:

I AM NOT LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH ANYONE

THEN WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!

 

[simalarion 2196]

My main issue with Tamiya is the high price, but when it come to pesonality for me they are superior. With That in mind its for me a give-away that these are not up to the standards if you have pro driving and perfomance and competition in mind, i never had. You can see it just by looking at Traxxas kits, that its the other way around, they are close to clones of each other and its just about performance

So Ive been looking at Traxxas & Schumacher and the kits i have seen just do not have the personality, they give me nothing. But if i ever get into competive driving on Laps this would change.

But i got the impression that all on this forum already was aware off all this..,

[Albert Attaboy 141]

6 hours ago, Finnsllc said:

I AM NOT LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH ANYONE.

Blind fanboys won't listen tho.

[mud4fun 1696]

41 minutes ago, simalarion said:

but when it come to pesonality for me they are superior. 

Yes, I agree with that.

However, with buggies, it is mainly the shell and decals that give the Tamiyas their character. After all, one buggy chassis looks pretty similar to any other (ignoring quality of parts etc). 

My middle daughter completed her cheap DT02 Sand Viper yesterday. She has used the stock decals but sprayed the shell and wing in fluorescent yellow. It looks amazing. It is a very attractive shape, reminiscent of many classic Tamiya buggies and it looks massively more appealing than the pug ugly cougar shell.

I should have added to my list of negatives for the cougar was the shell and lack of interesting decals. Now obviously it is designed to race so they may not be relevent to a pro racer but it would be nice to have some different, more attractive shells available (even as separate options to buy). I'm probably going to fit a Tamiya shell to the Cougar (or try and get some nice decals to liven it up a bit).

Note: I didn't buy it for its looks though. I bought it because I want to run it, race it and generally have fun with it. Sadly, despite adoring my Avante2001 I just can't afford to keep fixing it or spending forever trying to find rare parts. I just wanted a nice modern buggy that was tough and had a readily available supply of parts and was also capable of being raced.

 

 

[Grumpy pants 4474]

Thanks for sharing this, I'm not bothered about it being a different brand- that actually makes it more interesting to me.

There are regularly threads with other brands and for me that is a positive- it gives me insight that I would not otherwise get and it is all good imo, Nikko, Schumacher, Kyosho etc. 

It does not detract from my personal preference to Tamiya, however I would like a Kyosho at some stage.  

[Lee76 638]

16 minutes ago, Grumpy pants said:

however I would like a Kyosho at some stage.

Yes, I’ve had my eye on some of their kits too recently.. my spending has been capped though until I’ve finished some of the other three works in progress...

just been looking at @Reedydriver ‘s collection in the re re thread.. there’s a definite appeal to me for those buggies.

[BuggyGuy 1106]

Totally understand what @Finnsllc is saying - and loving Tamiya doesn't stop you appreciating other brands of model at all 

Race grade off road 1/10 from the likes of Xray, Schue, AE, Losi etc are typically pretty good value, easy to get parts for, well supported and  very nice to build with excellent quality components. I had the pleasure of building an Xray XB4 2020 after seeing one on offer at MB Models recently - everything about it is pretty much perfect and it was an absolute pleasure to build. 

Some of the newer on road tamiya kits are much better materials wise than some of the classics (the TB-05 Pro, TA-07RR (and up), TB Evos, TRF419/420, even the M-07R are all very good) - typically no self tapers in these kits, they are fully ballraced, and they have oil filled diffs, alloy shocks etc. 

Sadly Tamiya have nothing currently available in the competition space offroad - only the DN-01 is still available, and you need to spend a fair bit on it to get it upto Trf201 spec, and I can't see anyway of sourcing parts for the mid motor versions which would be quite limiting on modern high grip tracks. If Tamiya released a successor to the TRF211XM and support it I'd definitely get one to compete in 2WD - probably not going to happen though... 

[Biz73 603]

This year I built my first Kyosho kit, the Ultima re-issue. We had a little discussion on another forum about the different approaches that Tamiya and Kyosho take to re-issues. Tamiya for the most part is putting them out as they were. It's great for nostalgia because it is the same build you had as a kid. Kyosho is going the "resto-mod" route and giving us a car that looks like the classic but drives better with updated technology. Neither is a bad way to go, just different. I'm really enjoying driving some different brands and seeing how they perform, but I have no interest in getting rid of the Tamiya cars I still have. If you have never built anything but Tamiya kits I would recommend trying one just for the experience. That said, no other company offers the number of different kit choices that Tamiya does.

Every brand has good points and bad points.

[Wez-li 1790]

I had a Schumacher top cat years ago, if I'm honest my frustrating attempt at building it almost got me out of the hobby for good. 

I recently sold my Cat k1, didn't have it long but found it to be an amazing buggy, miles ahead of any tamiya I've had, granted i haven't owned a trf car, but still this was great. 

I'd like a Top Cat again, I'll complete the build this time, maybe! 

[Jonathon Gillham 4605]

9 hours ago, mud4fun said:

 

BTW @Jonathon Gillham I know what you mean with comparing the schumacher to a TRF BUT I would say that from what I know of Tamiya prices then I think the Schumachers are significantly cheaper than the TRF's, certainly in the UK so a TRF would not be in same price market as a Schumacher even the 4WD L1 Evo is only £400'ish? So yeah the design, quality of parts and performance may be similar but I think the schumachers are actually cheaper? Also TRF's are pretty rare (even when new) whereas the schumachers are off the shelf and common here.

Sad to say but I have realised I have been a bit of an idiot in my blind love of Tamiya over the decades, especially in the last 20 yrs. Depending on how the schumacher performs and reliability etc I may well never buy a Tamiya buggy again. I will probably be getting my daughters schumacher buggies in 2021 too. 

 

The only price comparison thay would make sense is the TRF420 vs the Schumacher Mi7 and they are pretty similar. Touring cars are more expensive than buggies, I was surprised when I saw this as I assumed durabiloty cost more but the precision required for touring cars makes them crazy expensive. The TRF buggies are old and unavailable now.

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself! Obviously the cheapest buggy is last years race car thats done 6 meets and is being replaced by the new model. Buying new kits and building them is big part of the fun even though its far more expensive. I don't hzve the same attachment to the race cars, with the exception of the onroad which are all Tamiya.

[highflyer 73]

16 hours ago, Finnsllc said:

Preface: I love Tamiya, have 20 complete kits all running and all ran. From RERE super shot to M series to modern buggies, Higher end and entry level. I have been a Tamiya hobbyist since 1985. Now i will admit my long love for Tamiya has probably put blinders on my eyes as to the options and the advancements within the RC community.  Im still trying to get  a 201 even though i have 3 dn-01s, a db-01rrr, db-02, 2 top force and so on. I have no reason to bash the brand that has kept me happy over the last 30 years, nor am i trying to. I say this to limit the comments that will create a negative connotation to my post. I havent truly understood the differences between Tamiya and the modern kit until now..

My amazing daughter(12 years old) batted her eyes and got grandpa to buy me a Schumacher Cougar KD for the holiday. LOVE HER. Anyway, I was really impressed with the packaging upon opening the box, the organized system, the pre cut body and wing. The alloy parts, the carbon fiber parts, the alloy sub body. The step by step parts bags, the incredibly clear instructions, the quality of the feel of the build. its heavy and solid and just a totally different feel from tamiya.   

Im a buggy guy so i suppose that Im in a way saying this all from that perspective. I mean i really loved doing my m chassis's, i enjoyed doing my RERE kits  frog, supershot, hornet, grasshopper, brat, blackfoot and  TF. Im certainly not saying that Tamiya is bad but i have to acknowledge that as a kit, the schumacher is amazing. Im not sure where i can have a reasonable comparison between the schumacher build i just did and many many Tamiya builds i have done. 

Granted i havent gone to customization, or 3d printing or significant chassis and body adjustments. Some of the work here on the site is absolutely amazing.   Perhaps someday i will get there. Members here are incedible with what they can do. Im focusing more on the box kit build and my immediate recognition of something is way way different.

The weight, the carbon, the alloy, the solid feel of the chassis. I am well aware we can all "upgrade"our kits. But out of the box....... Im quite impressed. The Tamiya argument of part support, and to some, overpriced reissued that we all want but cant justify spending the coin for a plastic kit without manufacturer support, this schumacher build was far beyond any stock build ive done. 

I AM NOT LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH ANYONE. I AM ONLY CONTRIBUTING MY THOUGHTS AFTER BUILDING THIS KIT  

Comparing 30 year old builds to a new Competition 2wd race buggy was a bad choice don't you think.?  Apples and Oranges when it comes to feel and quality.   I would never compare my old plastic babies with my TRF babies.

Anyway, the build sounds fun and easy as you pointed out (like my 501X-201-417-EVO.7).  I hate cutting bodies so that is a bonus to me 

[Biz73 603]

It would be nice to have an apples to apples comparison, but Tamiya gave up on high end off road buggies.