Just built a Schumacher..........

[moffman 5752]

I've built loads of Schumacher's and tamiya over the years and I love'em all but without a doubt the schumacher builds are definitely not for the novice they are kits purely designed for competition and are fantastic quality cougars, cats, topcat, all requires patience and a good knowledge of the kit anyone thats built an xls will know about having a lot of patience when it comes to schumacher. 

90% of Tamiya kits on the other hand have the novice to intermediate hobbyist in mind and the quality is as good as schumacher but in a different way more on the aesthetics the beautiful box art the perfect instruction manual and the attention to details (detailed bodies, driver figures, decals etc) to compare both you can but I don't think in a negative way both manufacturers are in the same market but different ends, the last schumacher I had that I raced at a local club was the k2 aero and OMG was that a fantastic racing buggy and I was deep into racing Thursday night was club night and weekend it was championship rounds

Anyway I give all that up years ago because it was interfering with weekend family life now I just casually spend time with retro rc's (tamiya re-releases mostly and a few old buggies) and again fantastic quality but in a completely different way!

[Dakratfink 967]

When I got into RC ( tagging along with.  Dad) we raced a Kyosho Optima Mid. Even though my help in the build was minima, I still had hands on the kit and even young me could feel the build quality. Once I got better and was consistently in the 4 WD buggy class at my local club, the toughest competition was a guy named Joe who raced Schumacher. As my dad am I I got to befriend my on track rival we were afforded peeks under the Lexan. I was blown away by the engineering of the buggy. It was way ahead of its time for the late 80s. 
 

[highflyer 73]

1 hour ago, Biz73 said:

It would be nice to have an apples to apples comparison, but Tamiya gave up on high end off road buggies.

Unfortunately that is the case with TRF in general (driver contracts).  No more Championships 

[Mrowka 494]

I am far from an expert, but as an outsider, Tamiya seems to be a builder of drivable scale-like vehicles. Looks are foremost. That's also why Tamiya spends so much time on design and on appealing and realistic box art. This is intended to sell what they are making, and what they are making is almost a bigger Tamiya scale offering. A bigger Tamiya scale model that you can play with.

Winning races isn't what that vision is focused on.

Schumacher is making something different and what they are making doesn't need to look cool or vintage or scale-like.

[mud4fun 1696]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:45 PM, Biz73 said:

It would be nice to have an apples to apples comparison, but Tamiya gave up on high end off road buggies.

Yes, I agree. I don't think a comparison between a Schumacher Cougar and a Tamiya TRF would be fair as the cost differences and availability of both the buggy itself and the spares is not in the same league.

A fair comparison would be between a mass produced albeit top spec Tamiya buggy BUT Tamiya have not produced one since the very early 1990's so no comparison is possible.

Also worth noting when people are comparing prices is that the Schumacher price INCLUDES the alloy shocks, alloy chassis and carbon composite shock towers etc whereas even the recent £280+ re-re VQS requires a further £50+ spending on the optional alloy shock set and a whopping £200+ to upgrade to carbon chassis and other required parts. This is true of many Tamiyas over the years, the base buggies often required many expensive hop-up parts to match the stock kit spec of the Schumacher, Associated or Kyosho buggies.

Having said that, I actually think Tamiyas approach is the most sensible. Not everybody needs all the race parts and having a low base price opens the market up to beginners, kids xmas presents etc. Having built my Schumacher and appreciated the quality of all the components I also realised that for most people they could have done away with the beautifully over-engineered shocks etc and have a cheaper base model to allow access to Schumacher buggies to a broader market. Maybe Schumacher don't need the business or the hassle of dealing with the kids toy market or for some other reason? I have no idea. They seem to be doing OK with their current marketing strategy but remain a small niche business and largely unheard of amongst the general public. It would be relatively easy for them to expand that market to more of the general public so I assume they have good reason not to go down the Tamiya route.

[mud4fun 1696]

I finally managed to get my Cougar finished this morning. It is currently setup with a 13T Dyna Run Super Touring motor and a HW1060 ESC plus Schumacher silver compound carpet tyres so I can do direct comparisons with performance, handling and race results with our Avante2001/Egress and Thundershots which are also using the exact same motor, ESC and tyre combo.

Will be doing some postal racing with this on Friday so will be interesting to see how the 2WD performs against the 4WD buggies

 

A couple of things that I've noticed already that are better than my Avante2001\Egress\Vanquish\Thundershot:

1) The shell is a very snug fit around the chassis and gearboxes so dirt ingress will be minimal, certainly compared to the Avante chassis cars that tend to hoover up dirt into the motor area through the large cut away area at the back of the shell.

2) The suspension arms mount to small and cheap sacrificial parts (or to composite plates) rather than directly to the gearboxes so in the event of major crash it should be cheaper and easier to fix. Having broken three avante gearboxes this year (after rollovers resulted in the shock towers snapping the gearbox mounts) I really appreciate the schumacher design. 

3) The motor wire tidying brackets are a nice touch, such a simple idea but so effective.

4) The battery holder is good, easy to use and the battery position can be moved backwards and forwards. Downside is that the chassis only takes a shorty LiPo so that was more expense as I had to buy one whereas all my other buggies take standard racing pack sized batteries which are cheaper and more readily available.

5) The turnbuckles have large hexes on them and are fully exposed so are easy to adjust. The Tamiya turnbuckles on my Tamiya buggies tend to have tiny hexes that are almost impossible to get a spanner on and are often very fiddly to adjust.

6) The centrally mounted motor and battery means the weight distribution is pretty good, actually better than my 4WD buggies in side to side balance and surprising not too different in front to back.

7) The o rings that hold the pins into the hexes so they don't drop out.

8) The removable electronics tray so you can use strong adhesive tape to mount the ESC and receiver instead of velcro which invariably works loose over time after removing the components to wash the chassis. I can just unbolt the electronics deck in the cougar before hosing the chassis down. Nice touch. 

I was however quite surprised that the 2WD Cougar is SO HEAVY!!! It actually weighs exactly the same as my thundershot 4WD (using same motor, ESC, rear wheels/tyres and a LiPo) and the Cougar only weighs 80g less than my Egress and Avante2001 (carbon chassis on both). I was expecting it to come in at approx 1300g but it actually weighs 1467g in the configuration shown in the picture.

[mud4fun 1696]

PS. I may need to fit a bigger pinion, currently got a 21t pinion on the brand new Dyna Run Super Touring motor and I still managed to do donuts on the kitchen carpet tiles despite using very grippy cactus carpet tyres. (I tightened the slipper clutch right up as I didn't think I'd need it with a brushed motor) This is my only buggy to have managed to spin up those cactus tyres on the carpet tiles, it is even quite difficult to get them to spin up on icy wet tarmac! Normally the tyres bite so well that any attempt to do a donut on them results in buggies shooting forwards in a straight line into the nearest kitchen cupboard...... 

[BuggyGuy 1106]

Believe it or not that's underweight out of the box for competitive racing in the UK. 

The weight of nearly all 2WD competition buggies will be very close to the BRCA minimum weights for 2WD (1474g)

Interestingly the newest Couger Laydown 'Stock Spec' is quite a bit lighter than the KD by the looks of the spec: https://www.racing-cars.com/rc-models-2/cars/cougar-laydown-stock-spec-kit-k181 - though that kind of makes sense for a 17.5T limited class

At least if your cars under weight you can put the weight where you want it for a tuning option! 

[mud4fun 1696]

50 minutes ago, BuggyGuy said:

Believe it or not that's underweight out of the box for competitive racing in the UK. 

The weight of nearly all 2WD competition buggies will be very close to the BRCA minimum weights for 2WD (1474g)

Interestingly the newest Couger Laydown 'Stock Spec' is quite a bit lighter than the KD by the looks of the spec: https://www.racing-cars.com/rc-models-2/cars/cougar-laydown-stock-spec-kit-k181 - though that kind of makes sense for a 17.5T limited class

At least if your cars under weight you can put the weight where you want it for a tuning option! 

Thanks, it just surprised me that it was virtually same weight as my Tamiya 4WD buggies. To be fair though, the Thundershot always was a light buggy, more so now it has LiPo and my Avante2001 has the carbon chassis so is lighter than stock. The original FRP chassis was about 60g heavier from memory. 

I've been out for a drive with the Cougar today. Did a 5 min postal race. Only got half the laps that my Thundershot and Avante2001 achieved on the round 6 layout LOL.  That is mainly due to me needing to get used to 2WD after 30 years driving 4WD's and it was icy wet tarmac. I also need to tune it for tarmac racing as it currently uses stock kit setup. I need to get the gearing right too. The steering takes a bit of getting used to, way more steering than I'm used to, can turn on a dime compared to my other buggies.

I'll get there. After all, I have 30 years experience driving Avante2001 and Thundershot, hardly fair to compare with a car I'd never driven before. Just need to get out now and put in loads of practise 

 

[mud4fun 1696]

@Finnsllc just wondered if you've had a chance to drive yours yet and if so how did it compare to your Tamiyas?

[Finnsllc 917]

@mud4fun ok so im tagging you because you are the last to respond. So to answer you first, no i have not ran the build yet. I am waiting on delivery of two trackstar 5000 kv ans 60 amp esc to be delivered. However i have placed a 3250 kv trackstar in to the schumacher. But, im just going to take a 60 amp esc from the incoming package and put it into the schumacher. Ive read all the comments. I think i was clear as far as just looking for a conversation about the differences of the builds.  so what i grasps after letting this thread run without any comment is this: being neutral, It seems there are opinions that say there is no way to compare this build to Tamiya. Comments that say Tamiya is more focused on realism as opposed to up to date technology. As well as apples to oranges, apples to apples. Well, I have taken all these responses in. All have been considered and digested. So, I do agree as far as the efforts taken by tamiya to produce a kit that has incredible detail and real world connectivity. The bodies though should not be the benchmark. I enjoy the realism of all the m bodies, the paris dakkar realism of the buggies. I do. But the comments referring to apples and apples bothers me based on the cost factor of our hobby. I paid 340 US dollars for this Schumacher build, Just like Tamiya i needed to provide an esc and motor as well as pinion. We all upgrade our builds. We do. Whether it be bearings,  it be alloy, blue bling, motors, esc, wheels, tires, shocks, bearings, or custom adds. those " needed upgrades" cost money. Whether or not Its needed to run the kit doesnt matter. We up grade the kits and by doing so increase the cost of the kit. I was at LHS yesterday. A frog was $220. Now im fine with nostalgia,  I have a frog, hornet, grasshopper and  blackfoot. Its not an argument of what we are willing to pay for. But lets go recent. VQS, $300 USD. I completly understand the want. However we complain and are troubled by the lack of parts or the "need " to hop up. Im not in anyway trying to put down the kits i have and still do love. Im just saying, builing this kit out of the box, with the quality and simplicity was an eye opener. I was all in on tamiya, I will always be a tamiya buyer and loyal hobbyist. However I know now i wont spend on Tamiya when i know im going to drop another $200 on top of the kit. If I am going to expand my Tamiya collection it will be on Tamiyas i dont have. As well as the enjoyment of doing the bodies, the details. But im not happy saying that a lexan body is worth an extra $150 dollars. Nor am i willing to continue to buy chassis that i cant get parts for. I went to the Schumacher site and looked up the car i built and EVERY part is availible. 

Perhaps my observations are to late to the party. I mean that I will always love the realism of tamiya, the fun of the build. but i find as i personally grow within the hobby that i do concern mysel more with quality and what i need to do after or during the build to make the kit as i want it. Its completely unnecessary to install $250 dollars of blue bling on my m06, but i did. Why? Because thats what Tamiya kits lend themselves to. I am NOT complaining. Im still just saying that for the money spent, Tamiya could do a whole lot more.  

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 1:52 AM, Jonathon Gillham said:

Yes it does, I'd also count the FF Evo line or the TA07MS. 

Its the easiest comparison for what a modern TRF car would be like compared to another manufacturer. The way they go together, quality of materials etc is what matters to me, not the type of car especially since Tamiya don't make TRF buggies anymore, and even if you get a TRF201 thats basically an Ae RC10 B4 so not exactly modern. I think the best approximation of a modern TRF buggy would be building a Kyosho RB7 or ZX7, the quality of parts etc is very similar to Tamiya's top shelf. But there are probably others like XRay, Schumacher etc which are just as good

Ive taken a DN-01 and basically made it a 201, Granted without the chassis upgrades and mid motor upgrade. Thats what? 400 USD on top of a Tamiya USA site cost for the kit of $550? 

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:31 AM, c64orinoco said:

Whats the difference in price between the Schumacher and a Tamiya? I know the final driving quality might not compare, but are the prices of the kit equivalent?

I think that was one of the points i was trying to make. Not that one was better from a hobby standpoint, but that for very close money the quality of the kits is un matched out of the box. Of course there are extenuating circumstances 

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 4:09 AM, mud4fun said:

I have been blinded by my love of Tamiya and now realise my mistake. I should not have bothered spending all the money I did on my Tamiya buggies, should have just bought a Schumacher years ago. The last time I owned a Schumacher (nearly 30yrs ago) the design and quality was not that different to my (then new) Egress etc but it seems Tamiya have stood still and made no further development or improvements in the last few decades while the competition has surged ahead? I've been truly shocked at the difference in quality of parts and design.

This is what i mean, I admit to the same realization. Tamiya started my enjoyment of this hobby. And i will forever be a fan, But carefully thinking before i buy and build. Its a slippery slope though. Obviousley thr detail of the bodies is unmatched and definatley a huge part of my attention. That being said, Im a buggy guy so, after building the schumacher buggy wise, its a different argument. Ill gladly build an awesome m chassis body any day. Probably need to move on to TT

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 4:26 AM, Lee76 said:

THEN WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!

 

SORRY

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:40 AM, Jonathon Gillham said:

Yes I agree, a Schumacher buggy will be a far better build than a Tamiya buggy. My point was to look wider and now build a TRF103 or TRF420 and compare, as that would be a better comparison. I have never built a Schumacher car but have built a few from other manufacturers and I understand where you're coming from

Is there a difference between a 103 and a 103gt? I have built a 103 gt. Looks great. cant drive it anywhere. 540 silvercan just spins out.

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:53 PM, highflyer said:

Im a buggy guy so i suppose that Im in a way saying this all from that perspective. I mean i really loved doing my m chassis's, i enjoyed doing my RERE kits  frog, supershot, hornet, grasshopper, brat, blackfoot and  TF. Im certainly not saying that Tamiya is bad but i have to acknowledge that as a kit, the schumacher is amazing. Im not sure where i can have a reasonable comparison between the schumacher build i just did and many many Tamiya builds i have done. 

Granted i havent gone to customization, or 3d printing or significant chassis and body adjustments. Some of the work here on the site is absolutely amazing.   Perhaps someday i will get there. Members here are incedible with what they can do. Im focusing more on the box kit build and my immediate recognition of something is way way different

@highflyer I was quite forthright with my comment. The bigger picture of my comment was apples to apples monetarily for what we as hobbyist shell out for kits and what we get qualitywise in return

[Finnsllc 917]

On 12/30/2020 at 7:01 AM, mud4fun said:

Yes, I agree. I don't think a comparison between a Schumacher Cougar and a Tamiya TRF would be fair as the cost differences and availability of both the buggy itself and the spares is not in the same league

But thats the point 

[mud4fun 1696]

@Finnsllc thanks for the reply and I agree with everything you say. 

Another reason I got the Cougar was that it allows much more setup/tuning to be done. I'm no pro racer but I have been interested in learning about car setup and the differences that changes to camber angles, toe-in, anti-squat angles and shock positions make to the performance of a car. The Cougar offers a huge amount of setup/tuning options so for me that was another advantage of going with the Schumacher. My Tamiya buggies have very limited tunability really. It is one aspect of the hobby that I've never really taken much notice of until recently when doing the postal racing and competing against club racers and trying to get my vintage buggies to get close or beat (in my dreams) the modern touring cars driven by other competitors.

Also another thing, Schumacher is a UK company and in these tough times I thought it nice to support a UK business as I am in the UK   (and we really enjoy the videos that Trish does on both his Trishbits youtube channel and his OONeil channel (for his trains) as my kids are also into trains too.

[Howards 456]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:01 PM, mud4fun said:

A fair comparison would be between a mass produced albeit top spec Tamiya buggy BUT Tamiya have not produced one since

the DB01RRR

[mud4fun 1696]

28 minutes ago, Howards said:

the DB01RRR

Ah, yes, I forgot that one! Thx

[mud4fun 1696]

I've now run my Cougar for a couple of hours of use. That includes doing six 5 min postal races, running on our garden track and general bashing, jumping off kerbs etc. 

So far nothing broken, which for me is pretty good. 

Alot of people seemed to suggest modern race buggies are boring, I assume they mean the actual race events rather than the cars themselves?

The cougar is a pleasure to drive straight of box using kit settings albeit in my case I increased ride height because of the rough ground and gravel etc. It handles really well although I need some silver compound front tyres because my yellow compound don't grip so well on cold wet tarmac. The silver compound cactus rear tyres have been great in the wet, as we found on all our buggies. We have used them on our Thundershot and Avante class cars too.

I love the way the car rolls (as in suspension movement & body roll not rollovers) in cornering and squats under power etc. It reminds me of the first time I drove my monoshock thundershot 30 yrs ago and loved watching the suspension move. The supple suspension and body roll is fun to see. My Avante2001, Egress and even my Terra Scorchers are stiffer and the little short front shocks don't allow much visible movement when driving.

The shell is such a snug fit to the gearboxes and chassis that even when running in rain and through standing water not a drop of water got inside onto battery or electronics. 

The only big negative for me has been the shell. I just don't like the shape at all. I prefer the more sweepy curves of the Egress or Thundshot. I'm thinking of trying to fit a Tamiya shell and undertray although I'd then lose the current good splash proofing so may wait until warm weather arrives.

 

 

 

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

5 hours ago, mud4fun said:

I've now run my Cougar for a couple of hours of use. That includes doing six 5 min postal races, running on our garden track and general bashing, jumping off kerbs etc. 

So far nothing broken, which for me is pretty good. 

Alot of people seemed to suggest modern race buggies are boring, I assume they mean the actual race events rather than the cars themselves?

The cougar is a pleasure to drive straight of box using kit settings albeit in my case I increased ride height because of the rough ground and gravel etc. It handles really well although I need some silver compound front tyres because my yellow compound don't grip so well on cold wet tarmac. The silver compound cactus rear tyres have been great in the wet, as we found on all our buggies. We have used them on our Thundershot and Avante class cars too.

I love the way the car rolls (as in suspension movement & body roll not rollovers) in cornering and squats under power etc. It reminds me of the first time I drove my monoshock thundershot 30 yrs ago and loved watching the suspension move. The supple suspension and body roll is fun to see. My Avante2001, Egress and even my Terra Scorchers are stiffer and the little short front shocks don't allow much visible movement when driving.

The shell is such a snug fit to the gearboxes and chassis that even when running in rain and through standing water not a drop of water got inside onto battery or electronics. 

The only big negative for me has been the shell. I just don't like the shape at all. I prefer the more sweepy curves of the Egress or Thundshot. I'm thinking of trying to fit a Tamiya shell and undertray although I'd then lose the current good splash proofing so may wait until warm weather arrives.

 

 

 

I've seen those comments about modern cars being boring. I think its because there are no flaws, they are predictable and well behaved out of the box. A lunchbox won't take off without wheeling, a Fox steers like a cruiseliner etc so that is part of the fun and charm of older cars. Give me a more moden car any day!

 

[Saito2 6686]

7 hours ago, mud4fun said:

Alot of people seemed to suggest modern race buggies are boring, I assume they mean the actual race events rather than the cars themselves?

I mean just the opposite. Modern buggies are fascinating to build, seeing how far we've come. Bashing with them is boring to me. Like @Jonathon Gillham noted, they are predictable and well behaved out of the box. Once the thrill of just how good it is wears off while bashing, it gets boring because its so point-and-shoot. This is where all the quirks or "character" from the older buggies becomes fun for me. All the Tamiya buggy families, for instance, have personality and driving style must be adapted to match.

On a race track the opposite is true for me. I wouldn't want to have to drive around all those quirks. I would want a race spec buggy without drama because the thrill and challenge of the race brings the fun factor, not wheelies or understeer. Racing is soooo much different now. Race buggies from various manufacturers had different strong suits back then and tracks could vary wildly, not to mention all the variables brought in by the Nicad/brushed motor tech we worked with back then. Nowadays racing seems so fast and tight that I can't fathom the skills and reflexes these young guys must have. There's no room for quirks in todays race bred buggies unless they are very subtle. In the end, its all about the right tool for the job.

[mud4fun 1696]

@Saito2 I'm not so sure. Some of the 'character of Tamiya buggies is just down to poor tyres and suspension setup.

For example, my Thundershot (with terra scorcher spec) fitted with Schumacher silver compound carpet tyres, lowered suspension and appropriate camber angles is just as fast and predictable on wet tarmac as the Cougar with same motor and 2S LiPo.  

As a more modern extreme example, my daughter's new Agroshot when running on the kit supplied rock hard tyres was sliding around, wheelspinning and was generally impossible to drive on icy cold wet tarmac. Yes, it resulted in lots of giggles but soon became simply annoying. By changing the tyres to a soft, grippy compound with hand cut sipes the 'kids toy car' nearly equalled my Cougar lap times on the postal racing track in cold wet conditions. It was an entirely different, more predictable and quicker car. 

Depends on what people define as bashing but for me it is just having fun jumping over wooden ramps in garden, running around the lawn and flower beds, driving on the beach or just having fun splashing through puddles with the kids. The Cougar can do all these things just the same as a DT02 or DT03 WITHOUT the fear of breaking things - not just because it is a stronger rugged design but because parts are plentiful, cheap and in stock and the Cougar is designed with smaller easy to replace sacrificial parts unlike many Tamiya buggies that can suffer broken tubs or gearboxes in the event of heavy landings after jumping etc.

For me, having a car that I can run without fear of breaking rare and/or expensive parts actually makes the Cougar more fun to drive. I can do jumps and other silly things that I had to stop doing with my Avante class buggies etc. It is like being a kid again.

Equally, if you want unpredictable or poor handling simply stick some hard (blue) compound large pin spikes on the Cougar, wind the shock collars all the way down so the car sits sky high and try driving on icy wet tarmac. I can assure you that handling and performance is then on a par with any cheap Tamiya - lots of fun and 'characterful' driving characteristics!  and if you want to wheelie like a lunchbox or willy willy, stick a brushless in and tighten up the slipper....