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Is there no love for brushed motors anymore?

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5 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

How about a few sentences?

Brushless is inherently more efficient, there's no way around that fact. Higher torque to weight, higher torque per watt.

I'd be interested in any instances of a brushed motor outperforming a same class brushless for sure.

There's a reason brushed has /is being phased out in multiple industries from trains to power tools to toy cars.

Very true and I'm not arguing that. On paper a brushless is better without a doubt.

However in practise not all brushless motors and ESC's are built to the same standard or have the same life expectancy. I experienced ESC's that burnt out/failed leaving me with motors that I couldn't just swap into another buggy or swap int one of my exiting brushed ESC's. Also I experienced very short lifespans on my brushless motors, two cheap motors failing before I'd expect to even need to change a set of brushes on my brushed motors. Now agreed that even the cheap brushless motors and cheap ESC's have massively improved since I last tried Brushless 10 years ago. I have even swapped out several Novak Roosters and replaced with cheap HW1060's and I have now bought eight 1060's as I find them such good, reliable little ESC's.

However back to my point, you don't need to buy a brushless to get more torque as appropriate gearing changes can gain you significant increases in torque AT THE WHEELS for near zero cost. Also correct me if I'm wrong but voltage plays a part here too. So my comment to Wooders was that he was missing a few caveats off his comment which was too sweeping in the context of whether people needed to move to brushless.

eg. Which produces more torque at the wheels (and better performance), a 35K rpm 13T brushed motor with 3S and a 13t pinion or a 17.5T brushless on 7.2v with a 17t pinion? I would suggest the brushed setup? sure you can drop the pinion on brushless but that was my point, it is not always a given that dropping in brushless will give better performance, other factors come into play and you might not have an available gearing option to make use of the power band and rpms of the brushless motor?

If I already have the brushed setup what gains will I see in buying a cheap £60 brushless other than extra run time? However if all I need is the car to last a 5 minute race and I already get 25+ mins run time from my existing setup is it good value to go brushless? If I have limited space to drive or my garden is quite small etc then do I really need a car that can do 40mph+? Driving on wet muddy grass do I really need that much torque going through the wheels or would it better to run a cheap brushed motor with potentially a smoother more progressive power delivery?

See what I mean? I get a tad annoyed by people making sweeping statements and recommendations which new younger users may take at face value without realising the caveats involved. I have the same problem with people who blanket recommend LiPo over NiMh. It is not appropriate for all people in all situations, in fact not even the majority in some instances.

In my view spending £60+ per buggy on upgrading 12 of my buggies to brushless would be very poor value for money as I would not see any real advantages over my existing brushed setups. I will try a new brushless setup in my Cougar later this year as that car is probably the most suited for brushless with significant gearing options and a slipper clutch. :)

 

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12 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

Very true and I'm not arguing that. On paper a brushless is better without a doubt.

However in practise not all brushless motors and ESC's are built to the same standard or have the same life expectancy. I experienced ESC's that burnt out/failed leaving me with motors that I couldn't just swap into another buggy or swap int one of my exiting brushed ESC's. Also I experienced very short lifespans on my brushless motors, two cheap motors failing before I'd expect to even need to change a set of brushes on my brushed motors. Now agreed that even the cheap brushless motors and cheap ESC's have massively improved since I last tried Brushless 10 years ago. I have even swapped out several Novak Roosters and replaced with cheap HW1060's and I have now bought eight 1060's as I find them such good, reliable little ESC's.

However back to my point, you don't need to buy a brushless to get more torque as appropriate gearing changes can gain you significant increases in torque AT THE WHEELS for near zero cost. Also correct me if I'm wrong but voltage plays a part here too. So my comment to Wooders was that he was missing a few caveats off his comment which was too sweeping in the context of whether people needed to move to brushless.

eg. Which produces more torque at the wheels (and better performance), a 35K rpm 13T brushed motor with 3S and a 13t pinion or a 17.5T brushless on 7.2v with a 17t pinion? I would suggest the brushed setup? sure you can drop the pinion on brushless but that was my point, it is not always a given that dropping in brushless will give better performance, other factors come into play and you might not have an available gearing option to make use of the power band and rpms of the brushless motor?

If I already have the brushed setup what gains will I see in buying a cheap £60 brushless other than extra run time? However if all I need is the car to last a 5 minute race and I already get 25+ mins run time from my existing setup is it good value to go brushless? If I have limited space to drive or my garden is quite small etc then do I really need a car that can do 40mph+? Driving on wet muddy grass do I really need that much torque going through the wheels or would it better to run a cheap brushed motor with potentially a smoother more progressive power delivery?

See what I mean? I get a tad annoyed by people making sweeping statements and recommendations which new younger users may take at face value without realising the caveats involved. I have the same problem with people who blanket recommend LiPo over NiMh. It is not appropriate for all people in all situations, in fact not even the majority in some instances.

In my view spending £60+ per buggy on upgrading 12 of my buggies to brushless would be very poor value for money as I would not see any real advantages over my existing brushed setups. I will try a new brushless setup in my Cougar later this year as that car is probably the most suited for brushless with significant gearing options and a slipper clutch. :)

 

So to sum it up you're too far invested into brushed for brushless to make sense economically. That seems logical enough.

I'm firmly of the camp that brushless is a good CHOICE these days, but not necessarily a good UPGRADE if you're already running a brushed system that you're happy with. I know this is a blanket statement, but I think it covers most of the bases?

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7 minutes ago, DeadMeat666 said:

So to sum it up you're too far invested into brushed for brushless to make sense economically. That seems logical enough.

I'm firmly of the camp that brushless is a good CHOICE these days, but not necessarily a good UPGRADE if you're already running a brushed system that you're happy with. I know this is a blanket statement, but I think it covers most of the bases?

Yeah that sums it up nicely LOL

It is not just that though. We will gradually move to brushless as we have no choice and especially if the kids start doing club racing but ideally will need new cars too. (Another reason I'm trialling the Cougar). Gearing options are very limited in the vintage Tamiya buggies and while the kids are learning to drive and while we are running in confined spaces there is no real gains for us the moment. Run time is not an issue as we already have 20-30mins per pack and we have four packs available per buggy when we are out and about so more than enough capacity available for even the most dedicated outdoor session :)

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9 hours ago, jupitertwo said:

can anyone recommend bashing level brushless motors that are a safe bet?

I like these, they're alot more expensive than the ,Goolrc, though. I've a handful of these and pretty much the same power wise as the Goolrc , but the esc is half the size (but not waterproof) , the motor has cooling fins (suggesting it's actually a smaller motor in a larger 540 can, so I always gear down slightly- to start with....) so good for enclosed chassis (Eg DT or DF chassis ), plus they have a programme card, so you can turn the power down if need be (punch), alter low volt cut off voltage for Lipo or switch off for nimh , brake strength, drag brake strength etc etc

Keep an eye out on auction sites and Facebook ,RC sales pages etc ,I got one for £12.

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233805169569

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31 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

I like these, they're alot more expensive than the ,Goolrc, though. I've a handful of these and pretty much the same power wise as the Goolrc , but the esc is half the size (but not waterproof) , the motor has cooling fins (suggesting it's actually a smaller motor in a larger 540 can, so I always gear down slightly- to start with....) so good for enclosed chassis (Eg DT or DF chassis ), plus they have a programme card, so you can turn the power down if need be (punch), alter low volt cut off voltage for Lipo or switch off for nimh , brake strength, drag brake strength etc etc

Keep an eye out on auction sites and Facebook ,RC sales pages etc ,I got one for £12.

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233805169569

I have recommended SkyRC brushless setups in recent history, so I wholeheartedly agree with your recommendation. I myself have been running a SkyRC Cheetah BL system (a 'true' 540 can at 13.5T) to death on my TT02B Monsterized buggy, putting it through heck (ahem) literally, in sandy/dusty conditions and 45 degree heat (that's Celcius btw). No issues whatsoever.

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Brushed motors are cool, especially in vintage buggies, it's just a shame there's mainly just the red Hobbywing 1060 to run them with now.  If Hobbywing made the 1060 in a range of colours that would be great for styling our builds. 

Some brushless motors look cool, the Kyosho Le Mans and the plain dark green Castle ones come to mind, but a lot of them are very modern and "hi tech" looking, also the ESCs are generally huge and have an obnoxious fan fastened to them, which just wont fit properly in a buggy with a driver figure in it.  (I don't understand how people can run buggies without drivers.)

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1 hour ago, NulnOilTycoon said:

If Hobbywing made the 1060 in a range of colours that would be great for styling our builds. 

Someone on here found, you can strip out an old servo, and the 1060 fits inside with some mods ,so you can mock it up, to look like the servo is running a MSC.

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They sound so much better ;)

My 13x2T Corally performs better then the other LRPX20 stock 13,5T.

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5 hours ago, mud4fun said:

So my comment to Wooders was that he was missing a few caveats off his comment which was too sweeping in the context of whether people needed to move to brushless.

My words where :- 

More efficient,  meaning longer run times like for like, and also more power and torque! 

So , "like for like" , a silver can vs 21.5t brushless (I believe that's the equivalent?), same voltage etc.

Brushless are 85 - 90% efficient 

Brushed are 75 - 80% efficient 

So AT WORST the brushless is 5% more efficent ,at best 15%.

Better efficiency gives more power and torque, due to less parasitic losses.

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You SEE......

Brushed Motors are far from dead!!! 😁 I've got ONE Brushless and 7 Brushed Motors (and that's about to increase exponentially!!!!!)😁😊💲👊💰😁

My one Brushless Motor, is in my very Modified 12lb Axial Wraith, that I run 4S, in Southern Rock Bouncer Competition. It's pushed to the absolute MAX, nearly straight UP, for 3 minute bursts of insanity!! 

NO Brushed Motor could take that abuse! A few have tried, all failed. I don't know of any Brushed Motor that can handle 4S for any length of time...

The rest of my soon-to-be-growing Fleet, are all Brushed. My M05 runs a 19T Motor, my TT-02S SM TTTT Runs a 21T, and my 3 Crawlers all run 35T (because I UNDERSTAND that 80T Motors DO NOT give you more Torque!! They produce LESS! Less Turns = More Torque. WHY do you think Low Turn Motors tear up Tyres - and High Turn Motors DON'T😖)  ..... Back off my Soapbox!! 

Even though the new Brushless Motors claim to be Waterproof.... ONE tiny drop of water in that Endbell Sensor -- and GOODBYE $100 Brushless Motor!!! 😖😞

My Off-Road Rigs go through Streams often. It DOES require more Maintenance (Bearings, Gearbox, Shocks, etc...), but Never an issue with my Brushed Motors!! 😊💯

For my more limited uses, being Disabled, Brushed Motors last a long time. I do still have a Comm Lathe (bought in 1985!!), and turn my commutators after the second set of Brushes. As part of in between Maintenance, I'll grab a thin strip of Krokus Cloth to polish the Comm, and keep them screaming in the night!! (OOOOF!!😖 Bad Joke!!) 

Overall, Brushed Motors are still quite relevant and viable. They're simple, fun, have great Torque.....

And thanks to the rise of the Brushless Motor - Cheap as Chips!!! Back in the 80's, I remember paying upwards of $70-80 for Trinity or Reedy Modified Race Motors.... 

It's now less than HALF that for comparable or BETTER. I don't see too many triples or quads anymore, but even the 17T Double Motor I just got for my upcoming FF-03 Build - only cost $16.00!!! 😉👍👍 To all the People who insist on Brushless... Encourage them!! 

They're keeping Brushed Motor prices LOW. 😉

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2 hours ago, NulnOilTycoon said:

Brushed motors are cool, especially in vintage buggies, it's just a shame there's mainly just the red Hobbywing 1060 to run them with now.  If Hobbywing made the 1060 in a range of colours that would be great for styling our builds. 

......(I don't understand how people can run buggies without drivers.)

@mud4fun still runs Vintage Novak Rooster ESCs!! Those were my favorite go-to Street ESC. Efficient, good power handling (modern equivalent to 4S!!), smooth and look cool and vintage - because they ARE Vintage! 

Rare as Hen's Teeth today, Novak is out of Business sadly. 😞 They used to be one of my Race Sponsors... 

Anyway, take a look at Vintage ESCs on Evilbay! Be careful of course... But if you can find an old, known DUD, very cheap, since ESCs were larger back then - you can easily fit the guts of a Hobbywing WP1060 or 1080 inside the Case!!! 😉👍👍 

In fact that sounds so good, I may try that myself!

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34 minutes ago, Carmine A said:

Novak is out of Business sadly. 😞

Such a shame, such a well know name and such innovators,  like the first brushless motor and esc for RC! 

Found a wee write up.....🙄 

********************

"The Super Sport 5800 was the first brushless system for many power hungry RC enthusiasts. Radio Controlled Car Action recently posted a Game Changers write up, we love the RCCA text!
 
"Oh man, was there drama when Novak decided to go for it and offer the first truly car-specific brushless power system. Electric RC was built on brushed motors, and motor manufactures spent countless hours and dollars on steady refinements to brushed-motor tech with new can designs, winding patterns, and brush configurations. Racing mod meant rebuilding your motor and truing its commutator on a miniature late, and brushes and brush springs were fussed over endlessly. Eventually, the motor was used up and replaced. Enter Novak with the Super Sport combo; it's more efficient. It requires no maintenance. There's nothing to wear out. There's nothing to tune. It basically lasts forever. This was a huge shock to the brushed motor status quo, and one motor manufacture even placed a full page add in RC Car Action rallying against the new technology. It didn't make a difference, brushless power simply offered to much performance and to many benefits compared to brushed power. Brushed power is still common in econo RTRs, but when it comes to serious power and performance, brushless is the only way to fly, and you can thank Novak for that." 

 

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I make motor brushes for a living, there will always be a need for them (keeps me paid)  In RC terms there is also absolutely a need for them. 

Some people love to fiddle, so the constant tweaking required to keep them running sweet scratches an itch. Others like to relive their childhood, suddenly all the cool top end gear that was out of pocket money range two decades ago is affordable and you can fulfil the childhood ideal. RC motors have such style and appeal too,  they've very pretty things. 

love brushless, I love the speed, power and ease of them. But a good chunk of my cars have brushed motors because I like the low end feel and they feel more appropriate for older car, even though I'll pep them up a bit with the higher discharge of lipo.  Plus if you're doing a colour theme it can be easy to match. Brushless motors don't have the charm no matter how fancy the cut-outs or how garish the anodising. 

I think a lot of the brushless animosity comes from horrible bargain sensorless setups personally, and a lot of the brushed = slow mentality comes from being a bit thick. 

My personal favourite brushed motors are a 3 way tie between a 27t stock Trinity 'Revenge of the Monster' the Schumacher Flash 2 and the  12t double Demon Power King (RIP NIck Adams) 
I think the Trinity slightly peaks ahead because of the charming yet naff drawing on the can.
Trinity RC 1:10 Electric Motors Inrunner for sale | In Stock | eBay

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1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

Electric RC was built on brushed motors, and motor manufactures spent countless hours and dollars on steady refinements to brushed-motor tech with new can designs, winding patterns, and brush configurations. 

Anyone have a link to a good explanation as to why winding patterns, number of turns etc changes the performance characteristics of a motor? I have absolutely no idea about this stuff, but it's interesting to say the least. 

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53 minutes ago, Hobgoblin said:

I think a lot of the brushless animosity comes from horrible bargain sensorless setups personally, and a lot of the brushed = slow mentality comes from being a bit thick. 

Yes, I tried three brushless setups 8-10 years ago, all failed for one reason or another within a year. Two were indeed cheap. However one was a Novak system!

I have used Novak (mostly Rooster and Super Rooster) ESC's with low turn brushed motors and 8.4v for best part of 20 years without issue and still have one in my crawler. I was therefore a bit surprised and upset when the Novak ESC melted itself. I don't think the build quality was as good as the older brushed ESC's? In the end, after experiencing three brushless system failures in a short space of time it really put me off. Even now I'm looking at 8.5T brushless systems for £200+ and thinking that is a big investment for one car and a big risk if it fails. I can get alot of brushed motors, rotors and brushes for that and keep alot of my fleet running for a good few years.

Edit: also I was not impressed with the performance, they were slow compared with my brushed motors, made horrible whining sounds and power delivery was abrupt and rough. My brushed motors were quiet, Torquey enough and delivered their power smoothly. Obviously things have changed for the better now but as they say, once burnt, twice shy.

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I still run my Novak Super Rooster in my TT01 :D will post picture in “what have you done today”

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1 hour ago, JYCM3 said:

I still run my Novak Super Rooster in my TT01 :D will post picture in “what have you done today”

I love my Novak Roosters. The only reason I replaced them in my daily driver buggies was they were very large and heavy. I needed more space for a transponder and needed to shed weight AND I am migrating to LiPo. I still use them in my Crawler because the extra weight over the front axle is good and the Rooster can handle a sudden surge in amps as the truck stalls trying to crawl up a step etc. 

Here is a pic of one of my Roosters in one of my Thundershots mated to an 8.4v Sanyo NiCd (not a cr*ppy NiMh!) and a Reedy 19T quad mag spec motor. This combination slaughtered the two cheaper brushless systems I tried although admittedly I had made a bit of a stupid mistake when buying my brushless. I'm sure I can't be the only one that did this but 8-10 yrs ago brushless was not quite as common as today and people were not quite as knowledgeable. I bought 17.5T brushless systems thinking that they would be roughly equivalent to my 19T Reedy, 8.4v and Novak Rooster. How wrong I was!!!! Then after the two cheap brushless systems failed I bought the Novak system thinking that the higher prices Novak would be a quality product. I bought a 13.5T (I think, can't be sure) again thinking that would be roughly equivalent to the 13T Dyna Run Super Touring motor (33K rpm),  8.4v and Novak Rooster in my Avante2001 and Egress. Performance was abysmal compared to the brushed motor it replaced! 

thundershot1 (1).jpg

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1 hour ago, mud4fun said:

I bought a 13.5T (I think, can't be sure) again thinking that would be roughly equivalent to the 13T Dyna Run Super Touring motor (33K rpm), 

33k rpm is around 4500kv (presuming @7.2v) , or a good 10.5t, dipping into the 9.5t brushless region (without boost/turbo).

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My local hobby shop(well 90 mins away but actually a really good ,well stocked store that’s been in business for 40 years) thought that brushed motors are dead, I picked up what I think is a special motor, it was NIP, the price sticker is faded, the packet has yellowed, I am not sure how long it sat it the glass case for , I saw the price and said no thanks, it was $150 AUD, the shop owner said it was time to get rid of it and said how does $30 AUD sound, it really was a case of “shut up and take my money” lol

Heck, for $20 US it is even in TRF colours.......

 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

33k rpm is around 4500kv (presuming @7.2v) , or a good 10.5t, dipping into the 9.5t brushless region (without boost/turbo).

Yes, thank you. I did a bit of reading and I think I need a decent 8.5T brushless (when using a 2S LiPo) to match the performance of a 33k+ rpm brushed motor on 8.4v NiCD.

I was thinking about an 8.5T LRP motor and ESC for the Cougar as Schumacher seem to be recommending them at the moment.

I have zero experience of LRP so not sure what they are like?

I think one of the most important factors is waterproof and dirt proof as I am pretty certain that is what caused the demise of my Novak brushless ESC. I was tempted to go Reedy as that is a brand I know well however seems they are also not the same quality as they were in the past? Thankfully the Cougar has a tight fitting shell and even running in heavy rain recently all the electronics remained lovely and dry but it does cause me concern for my other buggies.

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18 hours ago, Re-Bugged said:

the ever mounting pile of Silver Cans

It's a shame that postage from the other side of the world is so expensive... there's a lot of potential in that mound of motors ;)

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19 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

I have zero experience of LRP so not sure what they are like?

I've an LRP charger (got it half price, when they went bust last time, possible Schumacher has taken them over?) and it's brilliant. 

I've an LRP Flow esc in my 4WD, and it's one of the more Urm , intersting , esc's I own. I've not got the computer USB link/firmware adapter, so programme it on the buttons, and it's a nightmare, 2 of the tiniest leds known to man, but guess if you're not changing boost timing or turbo timing alot (Or just running blinky), it might be ok. 

I'm running a Reedy 6.5t and a Reedy 510r esc in my Laydown, and it's faultless ,in wet weather I plug all the open holes with blutack. I got the programmer too, makes things so so much easier, no need to bother swapping pinions, just add more turbo timing!! 

I've just upgraded to modern LiHv lipos, (as long as you charge to 8.4v ,they're legal), so can test them back to back with old lipos, and see if they work better.

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6 hours ago, Robert5000 said:

Anyone have a link to a good explanation as to why winding patterns, number of turns etc changes the performance characteristics of a motor? I have absolutely no idea about this stuff, but it's interesting to say the least. 

It’s about the cross sectional area of the copper windings.  So unless the diameter of the copper winding wire is known you can’t compare motors even if they both have the same winding count.  Also it’s about minimising the gap between the permanent magnets and the rotor within.  Softer carbon brushed motors maintain better contact on the commutator but wear quicker and the springs pushing the brush also make a difference.  All very small differences but make motors very different.  
 

201FD80F-0CED-484C-8389-BBA71AD677B8.png

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