Is there no love for brushed motors anymore?

[jonboy1]

I have always been a die-hard brushed fan, but after having had a couple of mishaps with them and a lot of fun with the brushless set up in the Durga I'm split 50-50 now.

That said, I do love the look of brushed motors, plus I think with some of the vintage models I have they are more age appropriate for restorations, so for them it's a no brainer that it should be brushed.

On that subject - I'd love some advice on what brushed motor to fit to my Monster Racer  

[mud4fun]

1 minute ago, Robert5000 said:

This is pure gold! My local brick and mortar has some of the reissued Kyosho motors in stock, will definetely get one or two of them now, as even I should be able to follow those instructions. Thanks a lot for the explanation! 

Thank you. Just remember when polishing a comm, you are not trying to grind it down but simply to remove the black coating that builds up and ensure there is no bad grooving. Doesn't take much pressure. Go too hard and you remove too much material and need a new rotor. Just go gently until you get smooth clean copper.

[El Gecko]

I look at it from a compatibility standpoint. Brushed is compatible with everything, so I can put any of my motors in any of my cars with any speed control--mechanical, electronic or otherwise. If I go brushless (and/or lipo), that would be a total system (motor and ESC and possibly battery) that will probably stay in one car forever, and will not be compatible with anything else in my little fleet.

[mud4fun]

7 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

I look at it from a compatibility standpoint. Brushed is compatible with everything, so I can put any of my motors in any of my cars with any speed control--mechanical, electronic or otherwise. If I go brushless (and/or lipo), that would be a total system (motor and ESC and possibly battery) that will probably stay in one car forever, and will not be compatible with anything else in my little fleet.

The advantage with the HW1060 ESC is it is a 30 second job to swap a jumper from the NiCd/NiMh position to the LiPo position and you are good to go. I've been running NiCD and LiPo in my Thundershot all last year. I prefer my 8.4v NiCD to the LiPo for performance but will run the LiPo for endurance. Also because the HW1060 covers a very wide range of motors we can use pretty much any motor we have in any buggy now without having to worry about ESC changes. They cope fine with 13T motors and 8.4v even in wet grass as long as your gearing is not stupidly tall. Even then, they just cut out before any damage is done and you drop a pinion size and try again. 

[Wooders28]

Over the past decade or so, I've be brought, (grudgingly I might add....) into the modern RC world.

My first toe dip, was to brushless. I was running a 12 double in a Dark Impact and the esc went pop. I wanted something with a bit more go, so looking on eBay I found a Castle combo - 5700kv / Mamba max pro for just over £80,which I bought. Wow, how much better was brushless, in every aspect! 

(Maybe irrelevant, but....) - Next was Lipo, i bought the Imax B6 (New out charger then!?!?) , and a 3s lipo. I (wrongly) figured if I was going lipo, 0.2v wasn't worth the effort, but 33% more was, and I've not looked back, giving away my dozen or so Nimh packs.

Next was the move from 27mhz to 2.4ghz. This has been fairly recent (5- 6 yrs ago), as I was racing in championships with my old Futaba Attack R, when it started to become glitchy, then stopped dead at the end of the main straight when a car collided with me, damaging both cars, so it was time to let go of the past, and upgrade. I bought a full function, LCD screened Core RC CR151,  and wished I'd got one earlier ,not just for the faster responce time, but the array of features I never thought possible!!! (Since gone all out, and got a Sanwa Exzes ZZ ,probably the most expensive purchase in my 30+yr RC life....) 

Now all my cars are powered by either brushed 15t firebolts or brushless, but swapping out the firebolts as and when a good deal on brushless come up (e.g paid £12 for a brushless skyrc v2 esc + 9t motor 🤷‍♂️). 

I feel brushed are out dated, a bit like the old vinyl records. CD's (MP3 now, or is it , live streaming !?!?🤷‍♂️) sound so much clearer and are cheaper! 

 

[Robert5000]

10 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

I feel brushed are out dated, a bit like the old vinyl records

 

Heresy!

[Nicadraus]

Out of my 6 running kits, only one is equipped with brushless (in my FF-03 Pro-R), while the rest are with brushed. I also have a few more unused brushed motors like the Tamiya Torque Tuned, one 17t, one 23t, one 27t. Then 3 silver cans (two Mabuchi and one Johnson). My XV-01, FF-03 RR and LRP S10 are running 21t, while the MST CFX and CC-01 are both running 55t. I still love using brushed to be honest. I just enjoy the turbo and boost functions of the brushless. 

[Toolmaker72]

I think brushless motors give the instant performance increase when using a 3s battery pack.  They can achieve rpms when brushed motors will simply prematurely wear out.  If however you stick to 2s 7.4v then a brushed motor is well within it’s working voltage. Way back I used a 8.4v nicd to give the adjustable timed brushed motors an rpm boost.  Never raced an rc car but I like tinkering.  At the moment between 10 cars I have 2 brushless powered cars but I’m using smaller 2845 sized motors.  So not so much torque as the 3650 540 brushless but equal or perhaps a tad more than a brushed open bell stock motor.  I’ve used small 10 tooth pinions but with the motors extra rpm I’m getting rather good acceleration and quicker top end when using a 3s battery.  Not much heat generated at all, slightly warm to touch,  cooler than the brushed motors I have that’s for certain.   It’s like having performance with a lasting battery.  Downside to the 2845 brushless motor is it requires a mounting adapter to suit the 540 mountings.  The frog chassis and grasshopper chassis come with the 380 motor mount which enables the brushless 2845 to fit using a monster beetle 10 tooth pinion.  

  

[JYCM3]

My brushed motor I got not too long ago.

Holmes Hobby Magnum limited edition 10T 540 5pole ( got this after I saw the guy review this on you tube couldn’t stop giggling how awesome this motor is on his crawler) $150 for a brushed motor..no regrets.

Holmes Hobby Trail sport 27T 550 Got this one as my rig is pushing around 14lbs without battery so need something that has a lot of torque.

HW Axe 550R2 on order, it will be my first brushless setup.

also Tamiya Super Stock RZ on order so there is still love for brushed motors.

[sosidge]

Brushless is much better for 99% of running. Virtually maintenance free and highly reliable. Sensored systems have great driveability.

Sealed can brushed still has a place. Super cheap to get set up with a sealed can 540 and a Hobbywing 1060. Has the advantage of looking a bit more appropriate in a "vintage" build. Throw them in the bin when they die.

I have just put a similar setup in a crawler (Surpass 5 pole motor and Hobbywing 1080). Again, cheaper than the brushless alternatives and very driveable.

I sold my lathe a long time ago. But I can assure you that I never want to true a comm again just to get a car running properly!

Rebuilding brushed motors might seem fun as a throwback but it becomes a chore when you are rebuilding after every race meeting - and sometimes during race meetings!

[mud4fun]

5 minutes ago, sosidge said:

Brushless is much better for 99% of running. Virtually maintenance free and highly reliable. Sensored systems have great driveability.

Sealed can brushed still has a place. Super cheap to get set up with a sealed can 540 and a Hobbywing 1060. Has the advantage of looking a bit more appropriate in a "vintage" build. Throw them in the bin when they die.

I have just put a similar setup in a crawler (Surpass 5 pole motor and Hobbywing 1080). Again, cheaper than the brushless alternatives and very driveable.

I sold my lathe a long time ago. But I can assure you that I never want to true a comm again just to get a car running properly!

Rebuilding brushed motors might seem fun as a throwback but it becomes a chore when you are rebuilding after every race meeting - and sometimes during race meetings!

Yeah but 99.99% of people driving RC cars are not racing at even club level and would hardly wear a comm out in 10 years so IMHO brushless is over hyped and over priced and mostly over rated for most users and most use. Going super fast in a straight line on a car park gets pretty damned boring after a few minutes. For general bashing a brushed motor is fine.

[Dakratfink]

32 minutes ago, sosidge said:

Sealed can brushed still has a place. Super cheap to get set up with a sealed can 540 and a Hobbywing 1060. 

My G601 has a HW1060 and a sealed Dynamite 15T. 
when I built it I set it up with the 1060/Silvercan, but I soon wanted more punch. 
With a 6200mah/50C lipo it really scoots. And the cheap sealed brushed motor does well in mud and puddles 

[Wooders28]

3 hours ago, mud4fun said:

brushless is over hyped

More efficient,  meaning longer run times like for like, and also more power and torque! Defo not over hyped.

Even washing machines and hand drills use brushless motors these days.

3 hours ago, mud4fun said:

and over priced

With the cheaper end ,sensorless motor and esc combos around £30 new,  not exactly premium prices.

Top end , decent sensored motor and esc's would set you back £200- £300 , but you only really need boost timing slopes and turbo timing when racing. 

[Dakratfink]

8 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

With the cheaper end ,sensorless motor and esc combos around £30 new,  not exactly premium prices.

I have one GoolRC sensor less combo that probably cost about the same as a HW 1060 and a sealed end bell motor. 
It’s a great cheap little combo, but it was too Twitchy for my Midnight Pumpkin and put the brushless in an Old Stampede. 

[Wooders28]

14 minutes ago, Dakratfink said:

I have one GoolRC sensor less combo that probably cost about the same as a HW 1060 and a sealed end bell motor. 
It’s a great cheap little combo, but it was too Twitchy for my Midnight Pumpkin and put the brushless in an Old Stampede. 

The Goolrc have a history of batches of bad esc's or bad motors, so issues aren't unheard of, guess for that kind of cash, quality control isn't top notch!! 

Although, they tend to be less twitchy when you start upping the C rating or voltage.

For a little more, I'd go for the Skyrc combo, all mine have been faultless, even the £12 one! 

[mud4fun]

1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

More efficient,  meaning longer run times like for like, and also more power and torque! Defo not over hyped.

Even washing machines and hand drills use brushless motors these days.

With the cheaper end ,sensorless motor and esc combos around £30 new,  not exactly premium prices.

Top end , decent sensored motor and esc's would set you back £200- £300 , but you only really need boost timing slopes and turbo timing when racing. 

When I say I haven't got any brushless it doesn't mean I haven't had any. I have had quite a few and they are all long ago in the bin while my vintage brushed motors are still running fine. 

You believe what you want but for me I'll stick with brushed for most of our bashing fleet. 

Alot of your points are invalid and based on the very hype I talked about rather than fact but I am not interested in an arguing. For me and my kids brushed works, we get very long run times and we have very quick cars, more than quick enough for our use and the spaces we run in and our costs are very, very low for motor purchases and maintenance for a 12-14 buggy fleet. All I can say is that in our experience brushless setups were garbage unless we paid for quality kit and at that point it negated all the advantages.

and before making sweeping comments suggesting 'brushless motors produce more torque than brushed' I suggest you need to think carefully as that statement is so false on so many levels that I could write a whole textbook in response to show you how wrong it is..... 

[Super ally]

I have brushed motors in all my tamiya buggies with nicad batteries which suit these buggies perfect imo.I have no interest to go brushless or lipo as im old school from 80s era tamiya.

[El Gecko]

33 minutes ago, Super ally said:

I have brushed motors in all my tamiya buggies with nicad batteries which suit these buggies perfect imo.I have no interest to go brushless or lipo as im old school from 80s era tamiya.

I still have my old NiCds as backup, but they don't get used ever since I got NiMHs. Same size, same plug, new charger, longer runtimes, no worries about them exploding while charging (looking at you, lipo). Win win win win win.

[Mechanic AH]

8 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

On that subject - I'd love some advice on what brushed motor to fit to my Monster Racer  

Man, that is one Tamiya kit I'd one day want to find. I think if it were me I'd skip a Tamiya motor and figure out some clean vintage Reedy or Trinity. Something about trucks and those motors paired together.

6 hours ago, Toolmaker72 said:

The frog chassis and grasshopper chassis come with the 380 motor mount which enables the brushless 2845 to fit using a monster beetle 10 tooth pinion.  

Never thought of that setup and thanks for sharing! I like how compact it looks.

++++++

Thanks for the response, everyone. Sounds like there's still lots of love! Now if only we can still get new cool brushed motors as opposed to the cheap and generic ones that flood the market.

[jupitertwo]

Does anyone run fabless esc with brushless motors? I think that puts me off the most, the fan noise. Which is odd given you can’t hear it when the cars are going, but hey  

the cogging too isn‘t pleasant from the sensorless brushless. 
 

can anyone recommend bashing level brushless motors that are a safe bet? All the GoolRC ones or ‘blue bottle’ ones see to come with a ‘pays your money, takes your chances’ sort of label.

[Charles M]

Still running with brushes motor. On the running session with local club, I'm not so away with my TA04 Pro, 17x2 Motor,  NiMH, 41MHz FM Transmitter  than  New Tech guys on very small track. 

 

[mud4fun]

42 minutes ago, jupitertwo said:

Does anyone run fabless esc with brushless motors? I think that puts me off the most, the fan noise. Which is odd given you can’t hear it when the cars are going, but hey  

LOL, you should hear the noise from my Cougar even on brushed, sounds like a wailing banshee and I've treble checked the pinion meshing. Whose bright idea was it to have an open spur/pinion with no lube on them???? My Avante2001 and Thundershot are whisper quiet in comparison. It is so loud that I was fearful of running it down the local rec ground in case the old biddies complained about the noise. So fan noise would be the least of my problems 

[nowinaminute]

I still use them in some things but I like to run off road a lot and brushless simply has more thermal headroom when going through sand and grass and other high drag surfaces all while delivering more power and often giving better run times too. I find brushless better able to deal with the long run times and high current abilities afforded by lipo batteries too. The sealed can ones are very low maintenance too.

I just can't justify paying for a Sports tuned motor and even a good value ESC like the 1060 when I can get a brushless combo for the same price. And a lot of the cheap speed controllers are perfectly adequate now. You might fall foul of the quality control fairies now and then but you just open a paypal claim and get another. I've had 2 bad speed controllers and zero motors out of about 20 sets and I hammer the things relentlessly.

(Edit: actually, sports tuned current RRP is £25!! for a cheap sealed can motor! Then add the 1060 and you're looking at approx £40-45! You can get the 13.5t sensored "blue bottle" motor and a Hobbyking 120a sensored esc for that much, don't even have to scrape the bottom of the brushless barrel! )

I'll always have a soft spot for brushed but I can simply get more power and not worry about cooking the motor as much with brushless, especially in the terrains I most often drive on. I still have a fair few vehicles running brushed though, mostly the lighter ones and some vintage and/or toy grade stuff where I don't want to mangle the gears.

I still like to experiment with random old brushed motors I come across too, always fun seeing what an old 12v drill motor can do on 3s and I have some old Overlander Hurricane 650 motors that I need to try in something too, really chunky old things intended for boats and planes I think. 

And I have a Traxxas Summit with the enormous Dewalk 18v drill motor running on 4s, the must-have upgrade back in the mid 2000s. That thing pulls like a train and is really impressive for a brushes motor but yet again, I still find myself trying to juggle between gearing and temps because despite being enormous, it will still run hotter than a smaller brushless motor and not give any power advantage. 

So it's a mixed bag for me. In many vehicles they make no sense any more  but I will always have a fondness for them and there's still plenty of situations where they are perfectly adequate for the job.

[nowinaminute]

5 hours ago, mud4fun said:

and before making sweeping comments suggesting 'brushless motors produce more torque than brushed' I suggest you need to think carefully as that statement is so false on so many levels that I could write a whole textbook in response to show you how wrong it is..... 

How about a few sentences?

Brushless is inherently more efficient, there's no way around that fact. Higher torque to weight, higher torque per watt.

I'd be interested in any instances of a brushed motor outperforming a same class brushless for sure.

There's a reason brushed has /is being phased out in multiple industries from trains to power tools to toy cars.

[Re-Bugged]

I don’t really have a preference for brushed or brushless. It depends on the car and where I’m intending to run it.

I didn’t really know much about either a few years ago. As I’d mostly run Nitro up until then.

It was a Stadium Blitzer that kicked it off.

I only had what came in the kit to start so Silver Can it was to start. Running on NiMH first time out was a bit underwhelming. So a Sport Tuned was promptly added and a good improvement.

The only downside was it wasn’t great for Sand or really rough ground as the motor and battery would just about cook, Australian climate didn’t help either.

My Blackfoot started out with a Silver Can too, again once Sport Tuned was fitted both Battery & Motor would get uncomfortably hot poking around in the garden.

With the 2 NiMH’s showing signs of throwing the towel in I looked to LiPo & Brushless. Also with a Javelin in mind as well.

The SB now has a 13.5 BL in which works great now wherever I go with it, and the Blackfoot I put a 17.5 BL in and suits it very well.

I was convinced at that stage BL was the way to go, but then a Brat and an M08 came along.

The Sport Tuned is as much as I think the Brat can handle, and I put a Sport Tuned in the M08 and is so nice in there I don’t feel the need to change it, for now at least any way.

By this stage I’d learnt about breaking in a brushed motor too, that is something worth doing in my opinion.

The Torque Tuned in my SRB is great for that, you have to modify those to fit BL, I’ve had no heat issues (even on LiPo) as the gearbox acts as a heat sink anyway. It’ll run a whole pack continuously no trouble.

So in summary (for me anyway) Road and Older style Off Roaders I’ll use Brushed. While for  newer type Off Roaders I’ll use BL.

I recently bought a Kyosho 20t Brushed motor to see what they are like, hopefully in the form of powering a Fighting Buggy 😉 

And with the ever mounting pile of Silver Cans the next stage would be a 3s LiPo for a cheap performance upgrade for bashers at least anyway.