Why Tamiya FWDs (FF-0x/M-07/05/03)?

[Mechanic AH 581]

What are your thoughts/experience on Tamiya's FWD chassis? Love, hate? Is it good enough or just a chassis to get to be different? Or just save the money and skip it? I definitely get some folks love it but would you get it over an M RWD or even 4WD ones? What am I missing out by not having one? Thanks.

And then a couple questions:

M Series
I have a Mini body that needs a 210mm chassis and have the M-08 planned. But since the Mini is a FWD (in the 1:1 world) I've thought about some of the FWD chassis, M-05 II or M-07R in particular. I get the concept and characteristics of a FWD drivetrain but what else am I losing or gaining by going with Tamiya FWD M chassis vs M-08 (cost, parts and availability, durability, issues, fun factor, etc.)?

FF Series
I also have considered getting an FF chassis, are these decent enough? Worth getting? And if so, should I avoid a particular FF chassis? Last year I had opportunity to get an FF-03 Honda Accord Aero Custom for a very low price but in the end I went with something else. I've also been eyeing some '90s FF-01s but can't seem to go for any of the FF chassis, yet.

[Fabia130vRS 2098]

FF03 is like the ultimate Tamiya chassis to me.

 

I only own rwd and fwd cars. Not a fan of 4x4.

 

fwd are really easy to drive and a blast.

I have the m05ver2 and FF03. 
 

thw FF03 offers more possibilities in terms of gearing setup, while the M05 is limited while the M07 is not.

If it is the Aero Accord model thats a beauty.

I think the FF03 is more worrh buying but the FF01 is not bad at all. Just rhat rhese chassis are oöd and brittle I would say.

[Mad Ax 9312]

I love FWD cars.  I also have 4WD and RWD and generally I find FWD to be more fun to drive on track.  RWD might be the most technically challenging and 4WD might give the best laptimes but FWD has a unique appeal.  Lift-off oversteer, coming out of corners on full throttle with the inside wheel spinning, cocking a rear wheel on fast bends, it's a real hoot provided it's set up right.  Put on the wrong tyres for the conditions and it will swap ends before you can blink.

M03: I raced one in clubman class for years.  Our rules didn't allow many mods so it was stock, apart from TRF shocks and springs.  At the time everybody else was running M05s and I was a bit down the time sheets, but not by much.  In the right hands an M03 is just as fast at clubman level.  If you're not restricted by class rules then a ball diff tightens up the handling.  Grip-roll is king if you're on grippy tyres (we used to put superglue around the outer edge of the front tyres to reduce side-bite mid corner).

M05: I have one unbuilt, I've never driven it.  Superior enough to the M03 to get slightly faster laptimes on track but as a basher there is minimal difference.  I personally like the modular nature of the M03.

FF01: my favourite FWD chassis, I have several.  Technically far superior to the M03 and FF02, the motor sits in front of the axle for better balance and it has proper touring geometry.  I race mine in the Iconic Cup.  Driving style is very specific - you don't need to worry about power-on oversteer so you can get on the trigger much earlier.  Parts are now getting scarce, especially front gearbox parts.  Being right out front it can get cracked in a crash.  In the right hands an FF01 will match 4WD laptimes in the vintage touring class.

FF02: basically an M03 with a spacer in the middle and TL01 arms to make up the width.  Technically this is an inferior chassis to the FF01, being based on a compromised design, but in practice it works very well.  I drove one for the first time in the Iconic Showdown last year and was amazed at how different it was to both an M03 and an FF01.  It doesn't grip-roll as bad as like the M03 and it doesn't stay perfectly flat like the FF01.  In fact it has street-car levels of lean in the corners.  I was blown away by just how much the back of mine would lean over in corners without either flipping over or oversteering.  I expect this would make a great basher if I had somewhere to run touring cars.

I'm sure the FF03 is a great car but I don't have one and probably won't get one as it's too new for vintage racing and too old for Frontie.  For modern Frontie, I have an Xray T4F 2019, which is a fabulous bit of kit and is to the FF01 what an Xray T4 is to a TT01.  Almost everything is carbon or alloy, everything is adjustable, and it weighs about as much as a helium balloon.  The 2021 car has been out for a while now but I won't be upgrading, I love my 2019 car and I'm really not fast enough to tell the difference.  All I can say is that I love racing FWD

I once had the crazy idea that I was going to make an FWD drift car from an FF01.  First I tried plastic tyres all round, but it didn't go anywhere - it just sat there spinning the wheels.  So I put rubber tyres on the front and plastic tyres on the back.  No, that didn't work either - it would accelerate for about a metre, then instantly swap ends.  It's a good way to demonstrate the ferocity of the forces applied to a vehicle with powered wheels and how important tyres and suspension are in keeping it all on the road.

[LeftyAl 164]

FF01 cars look sensational sliding around corners. Takes a bit to get used to them, but when you get it worked out they are awesome little rides. If you have too fast a motor you can destroy tyres pretty quickly, but have a ball doing it. On its last run we put a 4000kv motor in it too see how insane it was. Very fast and dare I say it.... too much power  

Mad Ax is right about the parts for them getting very pricey. There is an A Parts tree (gearbox) on ebay now for >AUD$100, plus shipping. 

 

[Mechanic AH 581]

All sounds convincing. The scarcity and price hike of some FF01 parts is probably a little off putting unless I get one for the build experience, a few runs, then shelf queen it. Just never thought much about FWD because you know how they are in the 1:1 world. But I think this sounds like a good case (heavily consider m-07R). Wondering if anyone has bought one and regretted it or just felt it was mediocre.

[Carmine A 2046]

My favorite so far has been the M03 - with the FF-03 coming a close second.....

The caveat there being that I've never Raced TC at any level. I did Pro Buggy Racing. ~ AND I've never had the opportunity to try a FF-01. 

I've heard the same about the FF-02.... Stretched M03, bit of a faff, but fun basher. I'd have one, for a low enough price.

FWD in general is a delicacy... You love it or hate it!! I can't stand FWD in the Real World (likely because I'm American 😜). However, in RC, I find FWD the most stable and predictable Cars I've ever driven!! Incredibly, my 4WD Cars Understeer MORE than my FWD Cars!! 😲

It's going to boil down to what feels right to you.

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

I was interested in the FF cars since seeing a FF01 Mondeo racing against the 4wd cars back in the 90s and doing pretty well. Local clubs are also adopting a frontie class, its not FF because the conversioms are allowed with mid motor and belts running to the front wheels. It looks really fun.

I have taken it to the track and it ran really well. Basically kit setup and it was really neutral and easy to drive. Of course that could all change when I'm driving in anger (not that I get angry racing toy cars, cos, you know, toys, but you know)

I went for the FF04 Evo because it comes with everything except the alloy suspension blocks, but the hopups end up costing a fortune if you bought a stock FF03 and brought it up to Evo spec.

[Mechanic AH 581]

@Carmine A same here on FWD in the real world but I have a friend who has the FK8 Civic Type R and oh boy what a car. I always think of FWDs as practical vehicles and so I never considered getting a FWD Tamiya but I'm sure the driving characteristics in RC form is way better.

17 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

I went for the FF04 Evo because it comes with everything except the alloy suspension blocks, but the hopups end up costing a fortune if you bought a stock FF03 and brought it up to Evo spec.

That's a good move. I probably will just go straight to an R version of an M chassis with the hop-ups.

 

 

[Nicadraus 6198]

Like many here, I adore the FF-03. I have two running, one stock for spares and stocked up lots of brand new spares as well. I love how this chassis is very versatile and drives like a charm on and off road (yes I have a rally converted FF-03 too.). The FF-03 shares parts with so many other chassis like the TB-03/04, TA-05/06, TRF-415/416/417, FF-04/XV-01 and a few other kits. So parts availability isn't a problem even if it says it's discontinued because you can still get them in another part number. 

My love for the FF began with my FF-01 which I've had since 1996. It's shelf queen now but still gets upgrades from time to time. I ran it last year out in the street but didn't really sped it up as I'm afraid to ruin it. With regards to M series, not really a fan of any of the mini-chassis.

[rich_f 233]

10 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

Just never thought much about FWD because you know how they are in the 1:1 world.

 

10 hours ago, Carmine A said:

I can't stand FWD in the Real World (likely because I'm American 😜).

 

8 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

same here on FWD in the real world

What's with all the hate for fwd cars? Is it because rwd is usually reserved for sportier cars only, whereas the fwd realm has both sporty and non-sporty cars, so you associate rwd with better handling? 

8 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

I never considered getting a FWD Tamiya but I'm sure the driving characteristics in RC form is way better.

Better than a well set up, sporty fwd real car or a 'normal' fwd car? There are good handling front-wheel drive cars just as there are terrible handling rear-wheel drive cars and to tar all fwd cars with the same brush is unfair. 

There's a long history of front-wheel drive cars in full-size racing - BTCC, JTCC, etc.

So handling-wise, they are just as capable as other drive types in full-size cars. Where rear-wheel and four-wheel drive cars have a clear advantage is in standing start acceleration, especially on less grippy surfaces. 

I have several fwd tamiya cars - m03 and ff01. They are, in my opinion, more fun to race than 4wd - I'm not sure I'm able to pinpoint why. Maybe it was down to the limited allowed modifications to the cars, or maybe it was because prior to racing fwd, I only ever used an outdated chassis in 4wd racing I had done up to that point, but the fwd (m03 in m-chassis class) was the closest and most enjoyable racing I have ever done.

So I think it's wrong to dismiss an entire drive type based on a perception formed by experience of mediocre fwd cars. Maybe as Carmine A says, it's an American thing? I don't know of any bad feelings toward fwd cars here in the UK - but maybe because most European cars are front wheel drive?

I remember watching a TV show or a car video back in the 90's or 2000's, possibly with with Tiff Needell (former uk racing driver and Top Gear presenter) where he decided what he thought was the best-handling car (maybe of ones that were available new at the time - but I remember they had a skyline gtr in the mix) and the winner was a fwd car - a Peugeot 106 or a Citroen Saxo if I remember correctly. Had a look online but can't find it. 

[Mechanic AH 581]

@rich_f  Appreciate the feedback. You have very valid points and even being here in the US I remembered being fond of watching the JTCC, BTCC, Fifth Gear, and Top Gear. But it’s probably some of the Japanese shows like Best Motoring and their series running up and down Toge that got me into RWD.

Just want to clarify, because I don’t want this to turn into a heated thread or have any misunderstanding about FWD. I genuinely want to hear from people’s objective experiences (pros and cons) about the particular Tamiya FWD chassis (not FWD drivetrain) because I don’t have anyone locally to ask feedback from. I have no hate for FWD cars and I don’t think I’ve used the word “hate” or said anything close it it, or dismissed it—because then I wouldn’t be asking the question. I even mentioned the cool FK8 Civic Type R and how I think FWD in RC form performs. I also mentioned I understand the characteristics/concept of a FWD (and so like traction, corner entry, drivability, stability on various road conditions, etc.).

My perception comes from my own personal experience and so I wouldn’t agree with you on generalizing/thinking it’s an American thing. Obviously, @Carmine A has his own take on it . In fact, I know a fair number of enthusiasts who loves to modify their 1:1 FWD cars and back then I’ve been in two clubs that deal with FWD. There are a few reasons I’ve not considered a FWD RC chassis prior to asking the question but as you can see in my follow up I’m swayed by what people have said here. I’m relatively new to the hobby and so far I’ve bought chassis that are RWD and 4WD because that was what I grew up seeing in the RC world (save for the Kyosho Maxxum FF which I would love if I can justify/afford one now).

I’m not a professional RC driver or racer but my experience comes from the 1:1 cars I’ve had and friends with some fascinating cars. When it comes to FWD cars, I’ve had an all motor modified, a stage 3 turbo, and a daily FWD. But for me no matter what I did with those cars they never had the same feeling as my RWD or AWD car. (I don't have the FK8 Type R and I think that is one game changer). And even when I would test out friends cars I generally love the feeling of a RWD and it has nothing to do with performance, just the feeling. So with limited funds in this pandemic, I have to make a conscious decision when I pick a kit or chassis and for me it made sense in the beginning to go with what was typical and familiar. But now, as you can see before you posted Ive considered an M-07R for the Mini body. But, I’d like to sincerely say I like your passion for FWD cars .

[Carmine A 2046]

@rich_f You make a very valid point....  On Your side of the Pond, FWD Cars have been produced for a very long time. Earlier Cars like the original Austin Mini, raised expectations of the handling performance that a FWD Car should deliver. Therefore a LOT of development and Engineering Pounds went into speedy and Grippy FWD Cars!! 😉 

Here in America (even much of Canada), FWD was more RAMMED down our throats.  We did have the first Front Drive Car in 1928, by Cord... But it was lavish, extravagant, and nearly as expensive as a Duesenberg.

Our first real production FWD Car was the 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado, plagued with Gearbox problems.

Our first mainline FWD Car, was the Cologne built, Ford Fiesta in 1978 (2 years after you got it). Many of us weren't keen on the miniscule Kent Engines. The Car Magazines liked them, using words like "zippy", "nimble", "easy to park" amongst others. 

We saw them as more CRAP. This came from force feeding us The Pinto and Vega. One rattled and EXPLODED, and the other was built so badly, it actually RUSTED on the Showroom Floor!!! 

It took a lot longer to develop a U.S. Market FWD Car - that we actually WANTED.  There are definitely some today (Audi particularly), but many of us have been with, and gotten used to RWD (and learned to tame its quirks), that we're just much slower than the rest to fully warm up to it.

[Best explanation I can give]