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Saito2

inferior parts send my Mustang to the stable

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When its not raining, I daily drive a fuel injected Foxbody 5.0 Mustang. I realize the car's over 30 years old at this point, but its still a "latemodel" to me, lol. The other day my profile ignition pickup in the distributor finally started to go bad. Fortunately, it crippled the car in my driveway and not in the middle of traffic somewhere. What followed was a research trip down the rabbit hole of despair...

It seems that A: only the original Ford Motorcraft pickup is a good reliable replacement part and they are discontinued,  B: ALL the aftermarket replacement pickups from the auto parts stores are subject to failure at anytime, after 2 minutes of running, 3 weeks, or a year. Its a total crapshoot. C: any high performance replacement distributors (should I just replace the whole unit) are garbage compared to the stock Ford distributor and may fail or lock up at a moments notice. Its seems much of everything is made in China now and quality is in the toilet.

So, now I'm stuck with a car that I can't reliably take to work, a car which is/was enormously popular. Breaking down isn't an option. Beside the several hundred bucks in towing, I can't miss work. This whole mess has me re-thinking my Mustang. Have I reached the point where the only way to make my car reliable is to de-evolve it by stripping off the electronic ignition and fuel injection and replacing it with a carb and points distributor? Its sounds crazy, but those simpler items can be repaired on the roadside if need be. Fuel economy might not be as good but I lived with carbed cars for decades and they can be reliable. Its crazy to think that a $50 part (or lack of a quality replacement) may send me down this whole conversion path. I try to remind myself, the cost of the whole carb/distributor conversion is only one monthly payment on new truck currently, but still, it seems like a sadly extreme length to have to go to for reliability.  

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Put some Tamiya stickers on it and you won’t have any second thoughts about spending the money...

Terry

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Ahhh, the good old days of the daily repairs on a foxbody mustang.  I had an 88 GT back around 2000, owned it for 7 years and it was my daily driver.  Your best bet if something went in the distributor is to get a new one, MSD is what I had in mine after I put a new motor in, never had an issue (if people tell you its crap, I wouldn't listen to them, I heard the same from a couple people, but there is a reason they are used the most out of any other brand).  Don't convert to carb, I've known people who did it and regret it, not ideal for a daily driver. I included a picture of my car, because I miss it, lol. 

DSCN1015.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Its seems much of everything is made in China now and quality is in the toilet.

I think you've hit the nail right square between the eyes here.  While I don't want to blame China specifically - there are other countries that make bad products, and China can produce really good stuff too - sometimes it just isn't possible to buy a good product any more.  And y'know, in many ways, we did this to ourselves.  I mean, there were companies that made good clothes.  Clothes that fit, clothes that didn't wear out after 2 weeks.  We knew who made the good clothes because they had the good label on them.  But they were expensive.  So we bought cheap, and the branded clothes manufacturers had no choice but to move their factories where the cheaper labour was.  Oh, and the cheaper quality control.  Now the brands are still expensive, because they're selling of the back of a name, but the quality is no better.  The company founder started the company with an ethos of quality over price, but he doesn't care any more, he sold his stakes when they still made quality, and the shareholders don't care about the quality as long as they're making a profit on their investments.

The internet and remote shopping hasn't helped.  The pandemic sure hasn't helped but it isn't a new thing.  Was a time when if I wanted a thing, I went into a shop where I could see it, touch it and test it.  But we all bought online because it was cheaper, so the shops closed down.  Those that remained downsized and don't actually keep much stock, so I still can't try before I buy.  It's downpayment on pre-order and a pain in the backside if the delivered product isn't up to scratch.

Now, I'm going to go off on a tangent here, so make like Kumamon and bear with me because there may be some relevance here.

Right now I'm renovating a spare room and I want a second set of studio monitors.  I don't want big ones - just something I can work with inside when it's too cold to get in the studio.  So I look online at the reviews.

Top reviewer gives five stars: Excellent sound, very crisp and flat, bass is good considering the 3.5" driver size, best nearfield monitors you can buy for the budget.

Next reviewer gives two stars: Awful sound, overpronounced in the midrange, dreadful cut off on the bass, spend the extra and get full-size monitors.

So, tell me, reviewer 2, give me some context.  Are you a studio engineer comparing a £100 3.5" pair with your six-figure studio setup?  Because if you are, of course they sound bad.  But that's what us mere mortals have to contend with.  Or, are you an amateur who doesn't know how to set up a monitor pair or treat a room, and are expecting them to give you a fat sound like a set of hi-fi speakers?  Because if so, there's nothing wrong with the product, you just don't understand it.

And next reviewer says: sounded great on delivery, but developed a vibration in the cabinet after 2 weeks.  Replaced under warranty but second unit had a loud ground hum when switched on.  Sent back for another replacement.  Power supply has now failed 1 week out of warranty and is not available as a separate part.  Avoid avoid avoid.

Now, fair enough, maybe it's just a bad product generally.  But these are not specific reviews picked from a specific product.  If you read the reviews on Thomann.de, almost every product in my price range (and there's a lot of choice these days) has the same reviews.  One third of the buyers think it's absolutely brilliant (for the price), one third think it sounds terrible (but we don't know if they know how to use it properly or if they're unfairly comparing to much more expensive equipment) and one third say it's unreliable and will break down.

But internet reviews are a survivor bias.  The vast majority of people who have been quite satisfied with their product will never bother to leave a positive review.

Coming out of my tangent - is it possible that you're seeing lots of negative reviews of these pickups because of the minority who complain about them, but actually most people have no problems with them?

Second - how hard is it to change a pickup?  Can you do it roadside?  How expensive is it to carry a spare?  When I was driving classic Minis I usually had a spare distributor cap, coil, plugs and leads in the back.

But the sad truth is that it's getting harder to keep old vehicles on the road.  Lack of spares is only part of the problem.  Over here they're starting to charge people for driving older cars in cities.  Not so bad in cities like London that actually have pretty good public transport but near-impossible over where I live where all the little towns are separated by windy roads and limited public transport options and sometimes the easiest way to get somewhere is to go through a city (and be charged for the privilege).  Sure, I'd love to have a new car sitting on my drive, clean, economical, reliable, convenient for doing the shopping or picking the child up from the grandparents.  But I can't afford that.  No way.  I could sell my camper, my entire RC collection, my motorcycle and even my vintage synthesizer and still not be half-way to a new car.  Or I could do what every other family does and stick it on the never-never, pretend I'm living the rich man's dream driving a new car owned by somebody else, have to give it back in 3 years and have nothing to show for all the money outlaid.

We're talking about an old car no longer being viable, but it's new enough to have EFI and electronic ignition and all the problems that go with it.  Would there be any emissions or tax implications if you went back to carbs?  Over here that would be a big no-no.  If you couldn't get it through the emissions tests (which you would never do with a carb over here) then you wouldn't be able to drive it legally.  I once converted an EFI Mini to run a Webber 40 DCOE so I could run a Kent 286 camshaft, had loads of trouble with the electronic ignition so I fitted an Aldon points distributor, it drove like a dream but I had a heap of trouble finding a friendly MOT tester who would "accidentally" put the probe up another car's exhaust pipe.  MOTs got so sketchy over here it's pretty much impossible to do that now.

Now - on the other hand - assuming you can legally drive with carbs, is there any way to sell it to yourself?  Does it open up the possibility of running a lumpier cam, or a turbo, or anything else that you can tell yourself you'll do in a year or two to make it all worthwhile, even when you know you actually won't?

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3 minutes ago, Raven519 said:

MSD is what I had in mine

This was the name I was trying to remember when I wrote my magnum opus above - sure I've seen the Roadkill guys fit these to just about everything.  If it can get them across country in something that should have been left in a junkyard then it must be good enough for a Foxbody.

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7 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

Second - how hard is it to change a pickup?  Can you do it roadside?  How expensive is it to carry a spare?  When I was driving classic Minis I usually had a spare distributor cap, coil, plugs and leads in the back.

That's the problem. The distributor must be removed and pressed apart to do the pickup swap. If it dies in traffic, its dead. That's one good thing about points. I can carry spares and change them on the fly. My Nova uses point to trigger an MSD box. There is no contact wear since the MSD handles it now just rubbing block wear. The points are just a trigger. Furthermore, if the MSD box dies, I can just disconnect it and the points will function like normal.

7 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

I think you've hit the nail right square between the eyes here.  While I don't want to blame China specifically - there are other countries that make bad products, and China can produce really good stuff too - sometimes it just isn't possible to buy a good product any more.  And y'know, in many ways, we did this to ourselves.  I mean, there were companies that made good clothes.  Clothes that fit, clothes that didn't wear out after 2 weeks.  We knew who made the good clothes because they had the good label on them.  But they were expensive.  So we bought cheap, and the branded clothes manufacturers had no choice but to move their factories where the cheaper labour was.  Oh, and the cheaper quality control.  Now the brands are still expensive, because they're selling of the back of a name, but the quality is no better.  The company founder started the company with an ethos of quality over price, but he doesn't care any more, he sold his stakes when they still made quality, and the shareholders don't care about the quality as long as they're making a profit on their investments.

And that's what drives me nuts. You could expect junk from discount auto parts chains but if you put up the big bucks for something nice like an MSD unit, you were guaranteed quality. Now the OEMs are the only sure way to get a standard of quality and they're not making parts for 30 year old cars. One top dollar MSD distributor currently cost 85% of the way towards swapping everything to a carb and its still questionable. 

The other factor is what's at stake.  I'll take a gamble on a mere switch or non vital sensor, but not on something that will kill the car dead at 70mph on a busy freeway or in city traffic. Its an antique so the car avoids any emission inspections and I've been messing with Holleys, Rochesters, Carters, Strombergs, Webers, SUs etc. for years, even updraft carbs on old V16 Cads.

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10 hours ago, Frog Jumper said:

Put some Tamiya stickers on it and you won’t have any second thoughts about spending the money...

You know, for all the debating I'm doing, the conversion won't run anymore money than an Egress re-re so....

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9 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

Its seems much of everything is made in China now and quality is in the toilet.

It's called Job security, notice Nothing lasts at least any thing made today unless it's a quality hand tool

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When I re-wired my MG last year, I was able to get a good-quality, USA-made wiring harness from Painless. But it is getting harder and harder to find decent parts for older cars. I was told to avoid things like Pertronix or MSD setups and stick with the points, but to only use Lucas-brand ignition parts in it. So it now uses a brand-new Lucas coil, points, and condenser (all made in India now, I think), and it runs like a top. Lucas is now the most reliable choice for old British cars; how's that for irony?

For my truck, I order actual Delco ignition/fuel/emissions components from Rock Auto instead of risking the auto parts store stuff, because I've definitely had issues in the past. The Toyota gets the cheap parts, but it's a $500 beater and it's pretty much invincible so it doesn't need much anyway.

And really, you have to disassemble your distributor on the bench to replace the pickup? Bad Ford. Shame on them. I'll never take my HEI distributor for granted again...

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2 hours ago, markbt73 said:

For my truck, I order actual Delco ignition/fuel/emissions components from Rock Auto instead of risking the auto parts store stuff, because I've definitely had issues in the past.

I know what you mean. I'm tempted to stock up on GM HEI modules for my Corvette before they're gone. HEI was a pretty great set-up and I think that's more well-known now (evidenced by HEI conversions for other makes of engines) but it had a questionable rep BITD. 9 times out of 10, if I had a customer complain about a faulty HEI, it was because they got a cheapy overseas replacement module and usually forgot to coat the bottom with the proper grease. GM parts were pretty rock solid. 

2 hours ago, markbt73 said:

And really, you have to disassemble your distributor on the bench to replace the pickup? Bad Ford. Shame on them. I'll never take my HEI distributor for granted again...

The ignition module just bolts to the side of the dizzy and is easy to swap out. The PIP (profile ignition pickup) sits around the dizzy shaft in the bottom of the distributor. The PIP not only handles spark chores but also provides the computer with engine position info for the fuel injection. 

I hate to do it, but the only cost effective way to avoid all possible failures is carb and a "dumb" distributor. Other than that, your looking at upgrading to modern DIS and injection methods and I'm not bright enough for that...analog man in a digital world etc.

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Saito: where are you located? 

FWIW, for years, I have run a pertronix unit in my '69 Vette. It has worked well, but it needs to be wired in a specific way and only likes pertronix coil units, which aren't very reliable, in my experience.

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50 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

Saito: where are you located? 

US, PA. I converted a few cars to Pertronix when I worked at the Corvette resto shop along with my V8 Vega BITD with good results.

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Thanks. If you were outside the US, I was going to get you some US contacts to see what they could scare up, but if you're in the US you already probably have better sources for parts than I do.

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On 3/25/2021 at 4:52 AM, Saito2 said:

It seems that A: only the original Ford Motorcraft pickup is a good reliable replacement part and they are discontinued,  B: ALL the aftermarket replacement pickups from the auto parts stores are subject to failure at anytime, after 2 minutes of running, 3 weeks, or a year. Its a total crapshoot. C: any high performance replacement distributors (should I just replace the whole unit) are garbage compared to the stock Ford distributor and may fail or lock up at a moments notice. Its seems much of everything is made in China now and quality is in the toilet.

 

So you know ALL the aftermarket stuff is junk because you have tried it ALL and ALL have failed on you?  Or are you believing everything you read on the internet?  You have tried all the high performance stuff too?  Is the computer you are using made 100% in the USA?  Are all the clothes you have on right made in the USA?  I agree China puts out a lot of shaddy shtuff, but you seem to have gone to the absolute extreme, IMO.  A NOS pickup could fail at anytime also,  you said it yourself... 30 years old.  Granted, I am not a Ford guy, but this sounds so familiar to the 3rd gen F-body guys that rip their TPI units off and go carb.  It never seems to work how they expect.

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2 hours ago, kwkenuf said:

So you know ALL the aftermarket stuff is junk because you have tried it ALL and ALL have failed on you?  Or are you believing everything you read on the internet?  You have tried all the high performance stuff too?  Is the computer you are using made 100% in the USA?  Are all the clothes you have on right made in the USA?  I agree China puts out a lot of shaddy shtuff, but you seem to have gone to the absolute extreme, IMO.  A NOS pickup could fail at anytime also,  you said it yourself... 30 years old.  Granted, I am not a Ford guy, but this sounds so familiar to the 3rd gen F-body guys that rip their TPI units off and go carb.  It never seems to work how they expect.

I've been a professional mechanic working on cars from the early 1900's to about 1990 most of my adult life. It has been my personal experience that, for stock performance, OEM fitment, OEM quality and OEM longevity, nothing beat OEM parts. I'm not claiming OEMs are perfect but they generally have engineering muscle that dwarfs aftermarket companies and pick suppliers (when they don't produce the parts themselves) that strictly meet their engineering needs. They produce spare parts for their cars with quality, not price in mind because reliability is important to their brand. They aren't trying to undercut other aftermarket suppliers because they make cars first and foremost. You don't buy your car from NAPA, Advance Auto, Autozone, etc.

That's not to say they are perfect. OEMs made a lot of junk too and sometimes aftermarket suppliers, like MOOG, can improve on that. At one time, aftermarket performance parts manufacturers tried to do that too. After all, their name was on the line which is important in a smaller niche market like performance auto parts. But, it seems many of them have suffered a reduction in quality in recent years. 

When I research specialist forums and I see a 50/50 success rate on a part, I get leery. I don't believe forum members make up false stories about part failures. I put more faith in forum research than "star reviews" at stores/Amazon etc. because like @Mad Ax said, people with positive experiences are likely not to leave a review which skews the percentage. If it wasn't a part that could leave me stranded in rush hour traffic, I might not be so discriminating either.

As far as converting back to carbs, I don't see the big deal. People seem to act like they were these terrible things and yet we drove around with them forever until most manufactures switched to fuel injection in the mid 80's. I do understand how a variety of carbs work and how to keep things in tune. I do replace, gap and set points in distributors. I own a dwell meter, vacuum gauge, timing light etc. I've done the 2 dozen or so steps to properly set up a Rochester Quadrajet . But for every person like me, there's 20 or more that can't. The Quadrajet is probably one of the best, all around carbs ever mass produced. GM's engineering might far surpasses that of some of the aftermarket carb companies and yet most "car guys" will call Quadrajets "junk" because they have no idea how to properly tune them.

That being said, the OEM fuel injection stuff like TPI was great, as long as it could be maintained with quality components. 

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@Saito2... I agree with everything you said.  Let em throw this out there in a non-condescending way, if possible...

You being an almost 90 year mechanic, and carbs and points are your thing, why the **** are you asking us what we think?  Just do the conversion.  It's what you want to do anyway.  If it gives you better piece of mind and a more reliable vehicle, do it.

I don't do points, but half my vehicles have HEI and Quadrajets, and I have rebuilt each one.  I am with you man, I like the carbs.

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21 minutes ago, kwkenuf said:

You being an almost 90 year mechanic, and carbs and points are your thing, why the **** are you asking us what we think?  Just do the conversion.  It's what you want to do anyway.  If it gives you better piece of mind and a more reliable vehicle, do it.

I don't do points, but half my vehicles have HEI and Quadrajets, and I have rebuilt each one.  I am with you man, I like the carbs.

I'm sorry if I came off preachy. I've been doing this for awhile and have just developed some opinions based on personal experience along the way. Sourcing correct, good quality parts feels like 50% of the battle when working with older cars. I can also see why my tone may have made it appear I'm diehard for carbs and points. I'm not and the extreme nature of converting the car to carb over lack of quality parts is why I posted, just to get other viewpoints. The fact is, I like fuel injected Mustangs and GM cars etc. just as much as the carb variants when reliable components can be sourced. Each has their pros and cons. I just don't like misinformation spread (elsewhere, not in this discussion) that carbs are bad, get horrible economy of won't start in cold weather. Some "Car guys" are great at spreading this kind of rhetoric. I know I'm in the minority as most folks don't commute with a car over 30 years old nor care about maintaining one that old. We are an increasingly throw-away society and goes against everything I am. Its frustrating to see consumption and waste. In the end, I apologize to all who may have taken offence to that frustration that may have seeped through. Its probably best to let the issue drop and forget about it. My bad.

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There's alot to be said about modern reliability. There's not much between running perfect, and not running at all. In the, olden days, more often than not, you used to maybe get a random misfire ,or getting harder to start, but something that gives you a heads up the you should start replacing the serviceable parts.

(Not worked on a fox body, but) I'd  probably get 2 full aftermarket dizzys, and have one in the car, with the tools required, so you'll have a chance of getting home. Sods law being sods law, if you carry a spare, you don't need it, but that one time you take the spare out.....🙄😂

 

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