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Mechanic AH

The State of TRF? Anyone Cares?

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What are your thoughts or even experiences with Tamiya's TRF line? Is it only for very experienced drivers/Tamiya fans? Is it starting to phase out?

I was looking back at some of the TRF vehicles and started reading up on a number of them and the TRF brand. Very fascinating. Was doing research on the 4WD 501X and it has such an interesting story and how it sounded like the mule car was a frankenstein of parts including from various manufacturers (i.e., Yokomo, AE, Losi), in addition to the TA05 chassis being a base, until the the final product.

I understand, for some time now, they don't have contracts with pro drivers or don't seem to participate in the race arena anymore. It looks like 4 kits have been produced after they stepped away from the race scene (419XR, TRF103, 201XR, 420). So with all that being said, I wonder if Tamiya will still keep producing kits for the TRF line? Or is there no demand for it even within the Tamiya community? is it a price issue? My dream would be for them to produce a new 4WD buggy but I know that's unlikely. But, would you pay the price for a TRF buggy if a new one came out?

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I personally wouldn't bother with a TRF buggy UNLESS it was competitive. I quite fancy starting 10th off road racing again (used to race years ago) and would buy a modern Tamiya buggy if it was any good on the track. I would however, welcome a new off road chassis that was "scale" like Tamiya used to do in the 80's. Imagine a 2021 Grasshopper or Rough Rider. Now that would get my attention. Definitely not interested in all the 6s or 8s rubbish around at the moment, but a modern scale looking buggy on 2s would be superb... for me anyway. 

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The TRF line is very much alive. They still have the Japanese factory team developing and testing. Their latest kit the TRF420 is only just over a year old and still very quick.
 

There is a very active TRF scene, lots of drivers from all over the globe, including some who are are the sharp end of events like ETS and nationals around the world. The pandemic has obviously slowed it down as TRF people are drivers more than collectors. This summer I cannot wait to race with the other TRF UK drivers at the nationals.

 

This is mainly onroad, they have not pursued much in the off-road sector but my 503 is still a thing of beauty :) 

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There's no more TRF off-road, which is sad to me. Racing doesn't pay the bills, though, nor does it have any real effect on sales anymore. Nobody is buying a Lasernut because the SCTE it's based on wins National Championships, for example.

TRF on-road definitely has a halo effect on TA and TB cars, and on road guys really like the racing pedigree, even for parking lot cruisers.

While I'd really like to see more off-road development from Tamiya, the market wouldn't support a racing program now.

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Sounds like on-road is where most things are at? Just made me think of drift and the rise of drag racing here in the States. Of course aside from crawlers. Is the off-road buggy 1/10, 1/8, declining still the same?

I probably have to find myself a TRF buggy before they become unicorns.

 

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yup all is true. But i am only intersted in trf offroad.  tamiya has put that to pasture. now im schumacher and corraly and hb for offroad kits. tamiya has nostalgia but 20 years ago the trf buggies were great. now they arent bad but cant operate them. no support.

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I would’ve been all over a new TRF buggy, if for nothing else to compare it to the Egress, Avante and DF01 buggies. 
I’d even jump on a re re of the DB01rrr for the same purpose. 

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5 hours ago, Robert5000 said:


I’d even jump on a re re of the DB01rrr for the same purpose. 

I'd buy one right now if they were available.

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17 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

Sounds like on-road is where most things are at? Just made me think of drift and the rise of drag racing here in the States. Of course aside from crawlers. Is the off-road buggy 1/10, 1/8, declining still the same?

I probably have to find myself a TRF buggy before they become unicorns.

 

In the US, off-road is steady and strong. On road is stagnant / on decline. 
 

The issue with off road is that there are too many players, and cost of entry is too steep. Kyosho which had a long history on off-road has lost its market share to Associated and Losi. Tamiya tried with the TRF buggies but noticed that it wasn’t gaining any traction. also the only reason Tamiya tried was at the direction / request of TamiyaUSA. 

Associated continues to dominate, followed by Losi. even Xray who dominates in TC racing can’t unseat Associated

Its simply not worth it for Tamiya to head into competitive  off road 

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Agreed. The really annoying thing is that they have some really cool drivetrain tech onroad that would surely be a good basis for a buggy. A TB05 has nice options on motor position. Do a tub with front kick up, plug in the DB01 arms and hubs, new shock towers for 75/93 shocks, slipper clutch option for the spur, and boom! 270ish wheelbase 4wd buggy with some cool tuning options, gear diffs, loads of parts support/crossover with onroad. 

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2 minutes ago, Raman36 said:

In the US, off-road is steady and strong. On road is stagnant / on decline. 
 

The issue with off road is that there are too many players, and cost of entry is too steep. Kyosho which had a long history on off-road has lost its market share to Associated and Losi. Tamiya tried with the TRF buggies but noticed that it wasn’t gaining any traction. also the only reason Tamiya tried was at the direction / request of TamiyaUSA. 

Associated continues to dominate, followed by Losi. even Xray who dominates in TC racing can’t unseat Associated

Its simply not worth it for Tamiya to head into competitive  off road 

I think that's fair, but they don't need to race. For volume and lower risk they just need a DB03 - A mid range, tub chassis, upgradeable TA/TB level buggy. Just something better than a TT02B, and not fragile and impossible to get parts or gear diffs for like a DF03. 

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Interesting thread that hopefully benefits from a step back 

Kyosho Optimas / Ultimas then Associated RC10s buried Tamiya in competitive off road from the late 80s + 

They’re why I originally left the hobby as a kid - it became racing by numbers + everything felt / looked the same 🙄

Yokomo and Schumacher then widened the gap and Tamiya gave in - turning off road know how and TA02 lessons into a highly capable TA03 road car that David Jun tweaked to win across the board 97+ 

A minor sponsored privateer then spawned true TRF - the 404, 414, 415  etc - and Worlds wins on road 

That then fed back some innovation off road re the 201, 501, 511 etc - but Tamiya had been left behind + didn’t have the appetite or pockets to battle both series  

Is it too late for victory in either / both ?

Absolutely not - Tamiya could innovate any to success 

Whether there’s a commercial rationale when we don’t press the issue is another matter ?

To be fair, we appear content filling Tamiya’s coffers buying re re and bodies on boring chassis so why should they ? 🤔

If we want a vibrant TRF series, we might look in the mirror re why it’s not there !

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@SuperChamp82 Fair point. I think the point i was trying to make was that we don't need TRF offroad or massive innovation from Tamiya. Right now i think a lot of us would go a bundle on a solid, tuneable, good performing buggy. Doesn't have to be crazy different, have 1000s of hours of R and D, or even both 2 and 4wd. Just one buggy, that's good, with parts support and some nice upgrade options and call it done.

Ok, not quite done. Some cool bodies. They can be full Tamiya madness. Go wild. Be the best Tamiya you can be. 

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I personally and selfishly do want Tamiya to go back into the off-road buggy scene with new 2WD and 4WD TRF chassis. I think if they really made an effort they could do so well (but maybe it would hurt their bottom line). I watched a couple of videos from Lee Martin where he talked about his 201 and 511 (511X: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0hmxVsW0l0, 201X https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggR4o5OJp_Q). While running those cars he won the European Championship. It sounds like the TRFs had a lot of respect from pro drivers and the cars were as capable as their drivers. But it's probably too much of a gamble for Tamiya since RC racing doesn't seem to have the same hype with the general public as before. It just bothers me because I think about 1:1 cars and imagine BMW not having their M division anymore, Nissan without their Nismo, Mercedes their AMG, or Audi and their RS cars, and so on.

 

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After thinking about this thread for a while I doubt Tamiya will make a return to off road racing anytime soon. Even if they do produce a competitive 2wd or 4wd buggy, how many people that currently race a Schumacher or Associated would switch to Tamiya? And how many hobby-ists would buy an expensive TRF kit to bash or put on the shelf? Not me. I would, however, buy a modern WW2 or updated Lunchbox or Wild One on a new chassis. And, I think many more people around the world would do this also. I think the golden days of off road racing are long gone, and Tamiya should put money into producing some new chassis's that are good performing and scale looking. Although hoovering up re-releases is great for nostalgic reasons, it's not likely to push Tamiya into producing some new vehicles/platforms. 

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All our onroad racers are Tamiya, because we can. There are a surprising number of us running Tamiya at the club too, and not just because of the TT02 class.

If they release new TRF buggies then people will try them, no question. Most people at my offroad club have some Tamiya's at home and would either buy a TRF buggy to try racing (a lot of TRF201s were run a few years back) or a DB01 replacement as they would buy them for their kids as a decent mid range car rather than a TT02B or Traxxas. For most of us its just the kit cost as we all have spare servos, motors, wheels etc laying around to get a kit like that up and running so I think a lot would sell. And a DB01 type kit at NZD300 - NZD400 would be pretty easy to justify, especially compared to an $800 race kit, especially if it had some interesting features like the TA/TB cars have had recently

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On 4/1/2021 at 11:39 AM, ThunderDragonCy said:

I think that's fair, but they don't need to race. For volume and lower risk they just need a DB03 - A mid range, tub chassis, upgradeable TA/TB level buggy. Just something better than a TT02B, and not fragile and impossible to get parts or gear diffs for like a DF03. 

I wholeheartedly agree here.. Tamiya does need a buggy platform that’s TA/TB 100%.  They had the Zanak which was the entry TRF201.. should have continued to develop it.  

The TT02 as a buggy (TT02B)  is just silly to me.. but it’s Tamiya.. they like to milk each chassis for as much profit as they can 

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I still run my trf buggies in Ontario Canada-

3 - 503’s set up for indoor clay

1 - 211xm set up for outdoor dirt

5 - 801x will have at least 3 ready soon

2 - 801xt one of which is race ready

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I agree with so much here, let me unpack that...

I'm an off-roader, I have more than 10 on-road cars but I've always had off-road racing as the spine of my involvement in the hobby since racing Top Force Evo's back in the early 90's. My return to racing was nearly 20 years later (!) in an 501X (terrible race car) and then 511's (I think I had 4 race chassis, fantastic buggy). The 511, especially with the upgrade kit, will still out-perform most drivers. I'd be willing to put a 511 up against a more modern buggy, the difference would be negligible.

The problem with them now is spares, they're expensive if you can find them... even aluminium bends eventually.

I don't get the demise of the TRF buggy journey, as it's been mentioned above you design one good chassis, have a TRF version, a PRO version and a Stock version with a flood of spares and Hop-Up that are interchangeable across all versions. I'm sure, in modern form, they'd sell well even if they weren't winning every meet.

It makes me a bit sad... but it also means I have the best buggy Tamiya has ever released. :)

511_03_13_02%20(800).JPG

 

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A lot to agree with here. I think a big part of the TLR / Associated success is that they're so embedded in the US market - most shops carry their parts and they're easy to get setup support on. Yokomo, Schumacher, and X-Ray vehicles are just as competitive but their market share is directly proportional to parts support and team support. 

If Tamiya came out with a 2wd and 4wd serious race buggy I'd drop my Schumacher cars (I run offroad carpet) in a heartbeat, but as has been said - it's all about return on investment and it doesn't seem that whoever is making the decisions at Tamiya is interested in innovating or taking risks anymore when it comes to offroad racing.

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The magic formula was always parts availability, sponsored drivers and of course success. Takes money and commitment to the cause. Not sure how the commercials work but as has been said, Tamiya did manage it with Mark Reinhardt back in the 2010s but they did not seem to want to maintain that position. 

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The 503, with a carbon chassis conversion to run shorties is still a weapon in 4wd. It’s tough as old boots and I’ve only ever broke a front arm.

 

Regarding off-road I suppose Tamiya just didn’t get the numbers they wanted and the onroad side was more successful from both a marketing and sales point of view.

 

The thing stopping them releasing a new mid level buggy is that they are popular as rtr. There is a huge amount of cheap stuff competing in that space from China. Why would Tamiya try to penetrate that market? The average YouTube reviewer would complain about the price, and moan about the effort involved in building it etc. 

 

With onroad they have very little competition. They make cheap fun kits with scale licensed shells. Supply club level racing chassis with brilliant parts support and still service top end racers with there innovations with TRF spec cars.

 

Also most of the Tamiya buggy fans moan about anything that isn’t 80’s or 90’s based anyway. So why do anything other than supply re-releases for them? No r&d or new tooling needed. 
 

let’s just see what Tamiya announce later this year.

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On 6/2/2021 at 4:34 PM, qatmix said:let’s just see what Tamiya announce later this year.

Porsche 959 on a new ultra cool 4WD belt driven m chassis called XVM-01 🤩

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It's a bit depressing seeing tamiya off road  stuck in the world of 540 silver cans, nimh, brass bushings and cva shocks. 

I just started off road racing and really wanted a Tamiya. All I could find was 10 year old trf stuff. I bought a trf502x. Issue was no spares and no options. The ball diffs are no good on high traction surfaces. 

Eventually I went racing with a yokomo. If tamiya made a race buggy I'm pretty sure people would race it. Tamiya don't need to but club racers would. 

Eventually all the horders who are buying the re re toys will have bought all the re re stuff they want. Then what for tamiya, they'll have to do something in addition to re re. 1/8, nitro, racing, bashers, crawlers? Will be interesting to see what they do next. Fingers crossed.

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10 hours ago, Max Roczen said:

Then what for tamiya, they'll have to do something in addition to re re

You've seen the TD chassis, right?

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