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FatherDagon

Goofing around at the track? Durability Questions.

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Hello everyone. I am new to the hobby. The closest thing to hobby grade I have owned up to this point was an old Radio Shack Red Arrow with an RS-540 motor. I have tinkered around restoring this car with my son, and he has shown an interest in RC, so I am thinking about taking him to a local track here. We have an indoor off-road clay track that is pretty active. My son has taking a liking to the Tamiya Rising Fighter, and I have also picked up a DT-02 Sand Viper.

I realize neither one of these are anywhere close to race spec vehicles. And I realize that they aren’t going to be competitive with the top spec vehicles at all. Nonetheless, I would like to take them to the track to goof around. We just want to get out and have some fun. If he maintains an interest in the hobby, we might eventually get something like a Team Associated buggy, but for the time being, I would like to stick with the Tamiyas.

That said, what are some suggested upgrades that make them more drivable at the track? I know I am not looking for a magic upgrade to make them competitive, but more along the lines of quality of life improvements. What upgrades would you suggest to make them corner better as well as be durable enough to survive jumps and rolls? Ball differentials? Carbon fiber stays? Etc? Thanks in advance!

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First, welcome to the madness...

Second, you have chosen well. The Sand Viper shouldn't need anything except the right tires and some careful setup work; it's a decent entry-level racer right from the box.

The Rising Fighter is more of a beginner's model, sort of a spiritual successor to the Grasshoppers and Hornets of old. It's a great way to learn to drive, though. I would recommend you replace the plastic  bushings with ball bearings for longevity and efficiency, and turn your son loose with it. Don't bother with any other upgrades until he has worn through the kit-supplied tires. If he can master that car, in stock form, he'll likely end up a better driver than half the people at the track with "real race cars."

And both are plenty durable if you stick to the kit-supplied motors, which, again, you should do, to start anyway.

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Cool. Thx. He picked the Rising Fighter because it was similar in appearance to the old Red Arrow we fixed up (driver and all). I liked the price and because I knew it would be easy to get inexpensive replacement parts for it. That way I wouldn’t have to sweat him bashing the crap out of it. The Sand Viper was something I came across and liked, but found it was discontinued. So, when I found one, I jumped on it.

I may have jumped the gun, but I wanted to be able to run LiPo and not bother with an external BEC, so I bought a couple of Hobbywing QuicRun 1060 ESCs for the first “upgrade”. I also ordered a bearing kit for the Rising Fighter, as suggested.

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It would be wise to select a car that your local shop has an abundance of parts for.  It will reduce downtime from broken parts and keep the boy's interest.

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Replacing the self-tapping screws with machine screws will reduce the maintenance required, makes maintenance easier, and will make your plastics last longer.  They don't loosen like the self tapping ones.

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First, I second a lot of the sentiment others have said above.

Second. Great idea with the Rising Fighter or other entry level buggy for a first Rac for him. 
I had a Nikko Tutbo Panther similar to your radio shack Arrow. When it broke and my dad could no longer fix it we started looking at a hobby grade.

Well, dad threw me in the deep end with a race spec Turbo Optima Mid He got a good deal on. 
man’s while I cherish every memory I have racing with my dad back in the day, driving a buggy like that was always intimidating to me. 
I think he’ll enjoy something a little More forgiving that he can wrench on with you. 

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2 hours ago, FatherDagon said:

I may have jumped the gun, but I wanted to be able to run LiPo and not bother with an external BEC, so I bought a couple of Hobbywing QuicRun 1060 ESCs for the first “upgrade”. I also ordered a bearing kit for the Rising Fighter, as suggested.

Two solid and inexpensive upgrades that pay off way bigger than what you pay in for them.

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Thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

5 hours ago, Big Jon said:

Replacing the self-tapping screws with machine screws will reduce the maintenance required, makes maintenance easier, and will make your plastics last longer.  They don't loosen like the self tapping ones.

Do you get these from the hardware store, or are there specific ones you get?

 

4 hours ago, Dakratfink said:

 I had a Nikko Tutbo Panther similar to your radio shack Arrow. When it broke and my dad could no longer fix it we started looking at a hobby grade.

I am a bit afraid to play too rough with the Red Arrow for that very reason. Things I can glue or rig are fine, but gears on stuff were a bit unique, and impossible to replace. I already cannibalized a Radio Shack Black Wolf that I bought on eBay for parts. 

 

4 hours ago, Dakratfink said:

Two solid and inexpensive upgrades that pay off way bigger than what you pay in for them.

Yeah, the ESCs at $21 and the bearings at like $12 was pretty easy to manage. Found some other parts of interest from a company called 3Team, but it seems like they are either going out of business, or having COVID production related issues.

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If anyone saw the other thread, we got the Rising Fighter assembled. We took it out for some bashing, and, well, we bashed the tie rods pretty good. hehe One of the members here mentioned that cheap Futaba servos might not survive track use, but I don't think that will be an issue. The tie rod ends bend waaaaay before the servo busts.  lol  So I guess the question is, are there any current production heavy duty tie rods? I have come across a few vintage upgrades for the frog/grasshopper/hornet, but they seem to command a fairly steep price, and I am not even certain they would fit on a rerelease frame. I also found someone on ebay selling what appears to be a home brew kit, but I don't know how well I should expect these to work or fit without some Dremel love.

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40 minutes ago, FatherDagon said:

If anyone saw the other thread, we got the Rising Fighter assembled. We took it out for some bashing, and, well, we bashed the tie rods pretty good. hehe One of the members here mentioned that cheap Futaba servos might not survive track use, but I don't think that will be an issue. The tie rod ends bend waaaaay before the servo busts.  lol  So I guess the question is, are there any current production heavy duty tie rods? I have come across a few vintage upgrades for the frog/grasshopper/hornet, but they seem to command a fairly steep price, and I am not even certain they would fit on a rerelease frame. I also found someone on ebay selling what appears to be a home brew kit, but I don't know how well I should expect these to work or fit without some Dremel love.

I don't know of an official Tamiya tierod upgrade for the Rising Fighter, but it is pretty easy to make up some yourself. You'll want some adjusters (50596), some ball connectors (50592) and some 3mm threaded steel rod. You could also get some 3mm ID alloy or carbon tube if you want to make them look pretty. Alternatively you could source some 3mm steel rods with threaded ends, one 70mm and one 55mm long. 

Simply drill out the holes in the servo saver and uprights to 2.5mm, and screw in the ball connectors. Cut two lengths of threaded rod approximately 5mm shorter than your existing tierods (or use precut ones) and fit an adjuster to each end, optionally covering the exposed rods with pieces of your alloy or carbon tube cut to length. Fine tune the length of the tierods so that the wheels have the correct amount of toe, then clip the adjusters onto the ball connectors and you're done!

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Bearings and steel pinions are always my first upgrade (generally i order with a kit), for reliability.

The 1060's you've already got.

Tyres will probably be the next big improvement around a track.

After that, (For the DT02 anyway) you're looking at adjustable turnbuckles , adjustable dampers ,ball diff and maybe UJ driveshafts.

I think then ,you're looking at a radio (depending what you have already?), so you can dial in steering rates etc, and get the car to react as you'd like it to.

But above all, HAVE FUN!! 😁

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5 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Bearings and steel pinions are always my first upgrade (generally i order with a kit), for reliability.

The 1060's you've already got.

Tyres will probably be the next big improvement around a track.

After that, (For the DT02 anyway) you're looking at adjustable turnbuckles , adjustable dampers ,ball diff and maybe UJ driveshafts.

I think then ,you're looking at a radio (depending what you have already?), so you can dial in steering rates etc, and get the car to react as you'd like it to.

But above all, HAVE FUN!! 😁

I got the bearings, but didn't get a steel pinion. Do these stock alloy ones strip or something? Is that the reason for going to steel?

I ended up scratching the 1060 for the Rising Fighter. As it turns out, the LiPos I have are too tight of a fit, and the leads are a bit short for the battery compartment design, so I ended up using NiMH. Since it came with the tble-02s (which will do brushless), that is what I ended up installing. But I will use the 1060 in the DT-02.

I will have to research tires. They use a hard packed clay/soil mix here that is supposed to offer a good combination of grip without eating the tires as much. I don't know what kind of tires they run on it yet though.

I haven't put together the DT-02 yet, but it seems like a lot of the aftermarket parts are out of production. I found a company called 3Racing that seemed to have a bunch of really nice upgrades, but most weren't in stock. Any idea of a current source for DT-02 parts?

The radio I got for these is the Tactic TTX300. It was both inexpensive and had great user reviews. I think it has both trim and rate for steering.

 

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On all my cars I replace the alu pinion because it wears quickly and create a grey  grinding paste and destroy your gears.

Your DT02 doesn't need that many upgrades as you have the Sand Viper. What I did on my Sand viper is replace all step screw connectors for ball connectors and added hinge pins to replace the screw pins in the arms. Thats all to start with. A cheap upgrade is to make your own brace in front of the car. This will strenghten the front of your car. The site The Racer explains some of the more advanced upgrades of the DT02.

DT02 brace.jpg

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15 minutes ago, No Slack said:

On all my cars I replace the alu pinion because it wears quickly and create a grey  grinding paste and destroy your gears.

Your DT02 doesn't need that many upgrades as you have the Sand Viper. What I did on my Sand viper is replace all step screw connectors for ball connectors and added hinge pins to replace the screw pins in the arms. Thats all to start with. A cheap upgrade is to make your own brace in front of the car. This will strenghten the front of your car. The site The Racer explains some of the more advanced upgrades of the DT02.

Funny you should mention that brace. I had just been reading about that (both the DIY and aftermarket upgrades).

I would love to get a hold of this, but I am guessing this is now hard to come by:

b_DT02-08_WO.jpg.6f6afe0c3e3b17b78726a68a90c5e643.jpg

 

Which steel pinion gear do you recommend? The 17T or the 19T?

 

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Tamiya alloy pinion gears tend to wear faster than the steel or brass (or hard-anodized aluminum) gears used by other companies. Some people (like me) feel it's not a huge issue, and just replace them with steel when they wear out, but many folks won't install them at all and just install a steel pinion from the start.

The standard kit-supplied ceramic grease seems to be the culprit in causing the accelerated wear. Instead of providing a cushion between the gear teeth as it should, the grease grinds away at the bare aluminum gear, and the aluminum particles stay suspended in the grease, turning the grease into a metallic grinding paste that wears out the gear very quickly. (Oddly, this effect doesn't seem to wear down the nylon spur gear hardly at all.)

This led me to think that the alloy gears might survive better with different lubrication, or none at all. So I've been experimenting. On one car (MF-01X chassis), I left the pinion/spur mesh dry, no lubricant at all. The pinion gear seems to be holding up quite well; in fact, after 20 or 30 battery packs' worth of running, it looks new. On my newly-built G6-01 King Yellow, I applied a single squirt of dry powdered white grease to the pinion. I'll report back after it's had a few more runs. But not using the grease Tamiya includes seems to be the key to pinion gear longevity.

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3 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Tamiya alloy pinion gears tend to wear faster than the steel or brass (or hard-anodized aluminum) gears used by other companies. Some people (like me) feel it's not a huge issue, and just replace them with steel when they wear out, but many folks won't install them at all and just install a steel pinion from the start.

The standard kit-supplied ceramic grease seems to be the culprit in causing the accelerated wear. Instead of providing a cushion between the gear teeth as it should, the grease grinds away at the bare aluminum gear, and the aluminum particles stay suspended in the grease, turning the grease into a metallic grinding paste that wears out the gear very quickly. (Oddly, this effect doesn't seem to wear down the nylon spur gear hardly at all.)

This led me to think that the alloy gears might survive better with different lubrication, or none at all. So I've been experimenting. On one car (MF-01X chassis), I left the pinion/spur mesh dry, no lubricant at all. The pinion gear seems to be holding up quite well; in fact, after 20 or 30 battery packs' worth of running, it looks new. On my newly-built G6-01 King Yellow, I applied a single squirt of dry powdered white grease to the pinion. I'll report back after it's had a few more runs. But not using the grease Tamiya includes seems to be the key to pinion gear longevity.

That is interesting. I will mention that I did not use the Tamiya supplied lube at all. I instead used Multi-Purpose Super Lube. It is a Syncolon/PTFE(like Teflon) based synthetic and has high compatibility with plastics.

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5 minutes ago, FatherDagon said:

That is interesting. I will mention that I did not use the Tamiya supplied lube at all. I instead used Multi-Purpose Super Lube. It is a Syncolon/PTFE(like Teflon) based synthetic and has high compatibility with plastics.

Do me a favor, then, and run the alloy pinion gear for a while and then post a photo of it. I'm trying to find a solution that doesn't involve everyone throwing out brand-new parts all the time.

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5 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Do me a favor, then, and run the alloy pinion gear for a while and then post a photo of it. I'm trying to find a solution that doesn't involve everyone throwing out brand-new parts all the time.

No problem. The stuff is stupid cheap and easy to come by. I came across it as a recommendation when I was researching lube to use for my old Red Arrow, so I already had some.

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9 hours ago, FatherDagon said:

Do these stock alloy ones strip or something? Is that the reason for going to steel?

As a few have said above, they wear quickly, and once they start to wear, wear the spur too, and leave a lovely aluminum grinding paste all over the gearbox and bearings, which requires a full strip down and good cleaning to get rid of. The wear rate depends on motor and use I guess, but I always get a steel.

8 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Do me a favor, then, and run the alloy pinion gear for a while and then post a photo of it. I'm trying to find a solution that doesn't involve everyone throwing out brand-new parts all the time.

I got this holiday buggy (DT02) a few months back, this used to be the pinion and spur....(I think most of us would have had an inspection before this happened, but if it was running ,then 🤷‍♂️)

2021-03-06_09-30-17

Replaced with a full new set of gears (about 2 hrs ago!), but all the casings and bearings needed cleaned too (Just blasted the bearings with GT68 over some kitchen roll though). The cost of a steel pinion is around the same cost as the gears, so steel are cost effective imo.

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4 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

As a few have said above, they wear quickly, and once they start to wear, wear the spur too, and leave a lovely aluminum grinding paste all over the gearbox and bearings, which requires a full strip down and good cleaning to get rid of. The wear rate depends on motor and use I guess, but I always get a steel.

I got this holiday buggy (DT02) a few months back, this used to be the pinion and spur....(I think most of us would have had an inspection before this happened, but if it was running ,then 🤷‍♂️)

2021-03-06_09-30-17

Replaced with a full new set of gears (about 2 hrs ago!), but all the casings and bearings needed cleaned too (Just blasted the bearings with GT68 over some kitchen roll though). The cost of a steel pinion is around the same cost as the gears, so steel are cost effective imo.

Wow, that is wear! 

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12 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

As a few have said above, they wear quickly, and once they start to wear, wear the spur too, and leave a lovely aluminum grinding paste all over the gearbox and bearings, which requires a full strip down and good cleaning to get rid of. The wear rate depends on motor and use I guess, but I always get a steel.

I got this holiday buggy (DT02) a few months back, this used to be the pinion and spur....(I think most of us would have had an inspection before this happened, but if it was running ,then 🤷‍♂️)

2021-03-06_09-30-17

Replaced with a full new set of gears (about 2 hrs ago!), but all the casings and bearings needed cleaned too (Just blasted the bearings with GT68 over some kitchen roll though). The cost of a steel pinion is around the same cost as the gears, so steel are cost effective imo.

That looks to me like more than wear. Usually the heavy wear pattern makes the teeth pointier, it doesn't knock the points off. That looks more like stripping caused by too much gap between the teeth. You said you bought it used like that? Did you count the teeth on that pinion? I have a sneaking suspicion it has 16 teeth.

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4 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Did you count the teeth on that pinion?

I did, and it was 17 (thought similar myself).

Can only presume its been run and run (the thing was covered in a red grit, so maybe an ,all weather playing field,  type area?) even after they got pointy, until the points sheared off, then run again, even after it stated making a grinding/jumping teeth noise.

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Well my son and I had a lot of fun bashing with the Rising Fighter and the Sand Viper at the park. I have learned they are both very different cars with a unique set of issues. The first issue I corrected from the other day, was the squishy tie rods on the Rising Fighter. I have replaced them with custom ones I made. No more bending, but I assume that this puts more pressure on the servo and servo saver. So I will see how long those last.

The Rising Fighter handles pretty well on grass and concrete. The only real issue I noticed is that the friction shocks make it bounce like a pogo stick. But it does nice tight turns and handles well otherwise. Are there CVA upgrades for this?

The Sand Viper however maintains a smooth even contact with the ground. I can really see how the old filled dampers make a huge difference. But it corners like crap. I don't know if I am lacking grip from the tires, or too much weight in the back end. What works best to solve this? Weights in the front? More grippy tires in the front? I thought I one time saw a Tamiya tire that was a hybrid rib and spike for fronts, but don't remember what car they came on.

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