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DF-03 - Super Stock TZ - Thermal Protection?

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Hey everyone... wondering if what I am seeing is normal. 

Setup is

 - Dark Impact 

- Super Stock TZ

- Cooling Bars flipped backwards

 - Slipper with stock pinion

 - HW1060

- XT60 connectors (Edited after Mad Ax’s post)

- Gartpot 2S

 - Cool Translucent Blue Slipper Cover that adds 5hp

 - Running in my backyard.. short grass. I have a track in my head I do repeatedly.   Pretty pinned most of the time

I was running NiMH without issue.  When switching to 2S, after what I would consider a normal run the car would start to slow.  I put a new battery in... still slow.. then crawls to stop. Have to wait a good amount of time... then the motor wakes up and seems normal? 

Does anyone know if the Super Stock TZ has thermal protection that acts like this?  The ESC seems fine. 

Should I switch to a brushless setup? Like 13.5 turns?  Does anyone have a recommended brushless setup that fits in the tight motor compartment and chassis? 

Thanks for any help. 

 

 

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To my knowledge, motors do not have thermal protection. They'd rather just heatsoak and then burn out lol.

What's likely happening is that your HW1060 is going into limp mode, which is apparently quite a common issue. I leave it to others on here with more experience to give you options as to what you can do about it. I believe installing a capacitor is one of the possible solutions, but I'm not speaking from first hand experience.

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It seems odd that it's slow after changing the battery, if it's a battery / battery cut-off issue.  Temperature is more likely.

Is the ESC hot?  I don't have the 1060 specs to hand but I'd expect it will shut off or go into thermal protection mode if it gets hot.  The Dark Impact body it very close over the ESC so it doesn't get much airflow.

What battery connectors are you using?  LiPo batteries can give more punch over a longer time, so you could be overheating standard Tamiya connectors.  If you switch batteries you still have the ESC-side connector which could still be warm.

Same for the motor connectors, although in my experience those bullet types don't usually overheat.

I wouldn't expect a motor to slow down if it overheats and then speed up again when it's cool.  Heat accelerates the rate at which the motor parts wear but shouldn't kill the motor unless you denature the magnets or melt the brushes or winds.

Do the wheels / motor still turn freely after it's done its slowy-downy thing?  Perhaps a bearing is overheating and seizing up.

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I have XT60 Connectors and they as well as the 1060 seem to be just fine temp wise. 

The motor seems hot but I didnt get my temp gauge out. So I dont have a specific temp. 

When brought  it inside I hooked an old silver can up on the bench and it was fine. Then... nothing agin from the TZ.... but the TZ is still in the car. Maybe I need to take it out to test.
 

I would like to think the drivetrain is ok... but maybe something is heating up and binding. I think next time it happens i will loosen the pinion and roll the car. 
 

The thing that is funny is this only happened after the switch to 2S and flipping the cooling bars around. I was thinking the longer run times were causing an overheat situation.  Didnt happen with NiMH. 
 

Only reason I went with brushed was for wiring simplicity... if there is a good BL setup that fits the DF-03 without cutting the chassis would def consider the swap. 
 

 

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How old or worn is the motor? I had a similar thing with the Super Stock motors and they needed the comm cut. Luckily s LHS near me was ablw to do it, once that was done I haven't had a problem since 

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 I am hoping this is it. 

After Mad Ax's suggestion that something in the drivetrain might be binding I remembered the first time this happened if it would give it a little "bump" or "push" while holding the throttle it would go.  So last night I took the pinion off to spin the trans... smooth as butter.  I put the pinion back on with a loose grub to spin the spur and pinion... not so smooth. 

When I assembled initially (the car is only a couple months old) I used a little grease on the pinion which attracted some dirt. Then to make matters worse,  when taking the motor out to flip the cooling bars around (thinking I was doing something good)... during re-assembly I set the pinion too tight.  It just so happens I switched to lipo at the same time.  Combine a pinion set too tight with some dirt in that stuck to the grease and a hot spur... I think it was locking it up and couldn't get an initial spin going.  I am not a wiz when it comes to electronics so its a guess on my part that if the motor has trouble getting going (beyond a normal launch) something bugs out (esc or motor I don't know)

I cleaned the pinion and spur, set the gap using paper then loosened the grub to make sure there was a smidge of play and was able to sneak out a for a couple minutes today in the rain to test.  It was acting normal but I didn't get through a whole pack before a rear damper fell apart (luckily found the parts in the grass).   The real test will be when I can run it continuously to see if my logic is sound. 

I am going to pop the TZ apart and replace the bushings with bearings in the hope it helps with heat... and because I can't decide if I like working on it or driving it more.  At the same time I will check the commutator.  The motor has under 20 packs thru it but you never know. 

Will report back after more packs and bearings... thanks again everyone for the help!

 

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No good... still acting the same way. Going to put in the stock motor and see what happens. 

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Burned through a pack on the stock motor so I am leaning towards something being up with the TZ. 
 

Waiting for bearings to come then will clean commutator while installing them. 

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On 4/11/2021 at 3:37 AM, DeadMeat666 said:

To my knowledge, motors do not have thermal protection. They'd rather just heatsoak and then burn out lol.

What's likely happening is that your HW1060 is going into limp mode, which is apparently quite a common issue. I leave it to others on here with more experience to give you options as to what you can do about it. I believe installing a capacitor is one of the possible solutions, but I'm not speaking from first hand experience.

After taking the TZ apart to inspect (and not really knowing what to look for) the comm was def dirty.  I ran it under water for a couple minutes which was a bad idea... cleaned things up but almost completely wiped out the brushes and the comm now seems uneven to the eye.  I figured.. what do I have to lose at this point?  Put it back together with bearings instead of bushings and gave it a rip in LIPO mode. 

 

Went into limp.. just like you stated.  I switched the jumper back it NiMH on the ESC... ran a couple packs through it.  Seems fine.  I didn't fully understand your post until I saw the Tamiya Legend youtube fix and what his car did.  I ordered the capacitor kit... will see if it works.  I def like the idea of being able to run it in LIPO mode and trust the ESC to determine when LIPO charge is done... instead of me eyeballing it. 

Live and learn.. gonna chalk this up to a combo of dirty comm and 1060 going into limp.  Might switch this car to brushless.... or get a HW 1080 instead.  Given my backyard can get muddy... wondering if SS motors are really the right choice for me.  

Thanks again everyone for the help. 

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Slightly off-topic, but since this topic is closed for the most part, would you mind showing us your ride @DPR250R?

I happen to be a fan of how the Dark Impact looks, so I'd like to see what you did with yours.

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9 hours ago, DPR250R said:

wondering if SS motors are really the right choice for me.  

You could always try putting the comm in a drill and using sandpaper to get it true again? Or find a LHS who still has a comm lathe and they can fix it.

I agree with your comment here. I have a couple of SS motors and they look great and perform well, but the hassle compared to brushless motors makes me think they're not worth it. For me its either the basic silvercan (or torque tuned or sport tuned) for the backyard  or brushless if I want something faster. The TBLE-02S makes that decison easier too, since they cant handle fast brushed motors but run brushless fine

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11 hours ago, DeadMeat666 said:

Slightly off-topic, but since this topic is closed for the most part, would you mind showing us your ride @DPR250R?

I happen to be a fan of how the Dark Impact looks, so I'd like to see what you did with yours.

I wanted to put together a build and thank you post together because this forum basically built the car for me. 
 

Will post soon! 

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@Wooders28, @Juhunio, @Dressed4succes, @Jonathon Gillham

You might not know me as I am a newbie but you have all contributed to this build.  The knowledge you have shared throughout this forum been invaluable to me and I am so happy with the way the buggy turned out. I had planned to put some big post together with pics and all but reality has set in and I just need to share what I can. @DeadMeat666 asked for a pic so it gives me the opportunity to post what I can and say thanks before life gets in the way. 

First... a couple build pics... nothing new... 

Never built a diff before... and didn't even know what @Wooders28 was talking about when he told me to get an extra set of front out drives and put them in the back.  

 

y4mu3RzkOPwEYZXHikJekADuC6xihMBB_-8I0q0k

 

Sweet... got that done... didn't even know how and RC car could have a clutch (the last car I built was a Boomerang or Falcon in the late 80's) but ordered one once again.. trusted the forum and ordered away... 

y4m3aI8YSSQv88AWOoaIL7dwEmO_qnMSSvcBlLB2

Gearbox coming together... 

y4m8KokZzvgfXfCL-dKTsz-Y-ONlRh7UnWpvrWVI

... still going ... 

y4mUp_QYsCtgHw5iOv5Mz2UQccO3ES9pi91NU4ca

... ah ha! my first RC diff and clutch.  Clutch was too tight and diff was too loose at run time... but you gotta start somewhere right? 

y4mFzTPhRBLL_sNgKvT1zdltUi0Szrrc6bRYD8-5

 

CVDs and turnbuckles... 

y4mJH44wCwB2DEkmWvBN2vZgtl-E7VStAFuxsnJQ

No pics of the front diff assembly... all of a sudden we have a slider... 

y4mbg_Uv1mInM8lI7ePrQaTDll4p1LWLMr66fDOx

Thanks again @Wooders28

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With stock suspenders...

y4m51FugCUyLFSBlcNzbZmTChS2MKxmjbB_b6tZK

Steering... 

y4mzZU0Mx_TO4733WIiervnwTyCQMq3eAk0mAcBK

y4mvavaWucJvhuHdUlrKiBNc9Ld91QYnvL9O6w32

y4mC3HAQLFUor3LuYgzApzZ3pWO6q3GAqFJmRr7p

Swapped Silver Can for SS TZ... 

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Roller status... 

y4mLdj5StOGYrr21muH35inDdvLtbOaUvKww8z8T

Need a pick me up... 

y4mB9dzuWsRPTnZV-qq5RrRLArPWcLchLUC7xguk

 

I finished the build minus the body in the dead of winter.  I was doing an electric conversion for my buddy who dug his old RC10GT out from his parents place.  I got through about 2 rule of Lipo batteries and he wasn't having it.. so we had to make custom NiMH pack to fit his chassis.  I took this pic to send to him  and the Dark Impact was in the background. This the only pic I had of the DF-03 before... 

y4mtS3NwIdYz43Fkvy7LVMeVUNCtIY34W2vB9A3U

 

... my son slammed it into a wall and snapped the rear arm off the gearbox. I honestly didn't even get it outside.  He saw me driving it around the house and asked if he could try.  He knows how to drive so I thought .. OK.  He decided to chase his sister with it through the living room at full throttle and ... BOOM!

y4mwCXrlq-VZZpm4WrrB-YoqWzJlxWy6MGvyW5iL

 

off topic... RC10GT electric conversion mock up... 

y4myn7KOAVNVUhC-wNcpSfPKIZrH05pdf6PS-zC1

 

...and I here was the shell after I just finished the body. I painted it when it was too cold and the paint is flaking now... my bad. 

y4mmUn8XzNqZBrQMlnJ4uIaba9mD8aRcTwiuQLK7

 

.. RC10GT finished (since I am a little all over this post)... 

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After some runs in the back yard... 

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y4mjw5H51cwrQsxy7GtjXw0NF09J574mHR72wdps

 

 

Well... I love this buggy.  Thank you again all! 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

You could always try putting the comm in a drill and using sandpaper to get it true again? Or find a LHS who still has a comm lathe and they can fix it.

I agree with your comment here. I have a couple of SS motors and they look great and perform well, but the hassle compared to brushless motors makes me think they're not worth it. For me its either the basic silvercan (or torque tuned or sport tuned) for the backyard  or brushless if I want something faster. The TBLE-02S makes that decison easier too, since they cant handle fast brushed motors but run brushless fine

Yes... I did see that technique!!   I may pop it back apart to sand the comm when I wire up the the 1060 capacitors. I am going to go the BEC route and run the servo wire to the capacitors between the motor and chassis over to the same side as the steering servo...  where I will end up mounting them.  So the rear gearbox will be coning off again at that point anyway. 

I really do like the way the SS motors look and preform as well.  But I think this is the buggy that I will drive the most as I have a little hit (jump) in my backyard that is so fun to launch it over.  I think the mud/dirt is not good for the TZ and would think a BL motor would be a little easier to keep clean/going.  

BTW... your advice of a 13.5 Surpass Rocket with the TBLE-02S worked a treat with an old Boomerang I decided to bring back to life. 

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y4mmCrZAAkSClOwxWwIE-X_qt16mUgg7i_zFqV4I

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A couple of vids that might help @DPR250R - 

 

Building a ball diff, yeah it's a modern Schumacher diff, but the principles are all there.

 

The difference between the sound of the slipper doing it's job, and slipping, compared to the damaging sound of a ball diff slipping (barking the diff). This is a 2wd, and only set the slipper this way on a 2wd, by holding down the rear wheels. In a 4wd, the extra weight on the front helps keep the nose down, so just  use the sound (I've melted a spur testing, so if you're setting it up, might be worth leaving the cover off, and give it the, lick finger - heat test...🙄)

Ideally ,you want the slipper to slip, before the diff does. Measuring is per instructions will get you near, but it'll depend on the motor used,  if you go to a low turn brushless ,it'll defo need set up.

So use your ears, you will hear if anything's slipping.

 

 

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Hey @DPR250R, thanks for the shout out and the progress pics, great to see another DF03 running! I like the shell colour, works well with the kit stickers, definitely better than original black :)

Getting the diffs and clutch set right is a bit of a dark art, but videos like those shared by @Wooders28 definitely help. I spent hours working on mine on the bench by 'feel', and then doing short sprints in the garden by 'ear', to get it to a place I was happy with. I don't run it often, maybe 12/14 packs so far, but the clutch has stayed solid throughout. 

Enjoy!

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I couldn't be sure that the slipper was slipping so marked the aluminium plate and the outer fibre disk with a marker pen so I could see the marks move in relation to each other. I'm only running a sport tuned motor so don't think there is as significant a risk to the diffs as if I had lipos and a brushless setup.

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Here is a vid that demonstrates what I was seeing with the "no reaction to throttle... give it a bump and it goes"..... at about the 1:20 mark...  so it seems more and more like the motor was the culprit (either dirty comm or worn brushes... I am leaning towards dirty comm given the conditions I drive it in and the motor having really low hours). 

 

 

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