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Mad Ax

Manta Force: Wet Weather Race Buggy

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This is a little idea I've had lined up for a few years, now.  It actually goes back to 2017, when I decided I wanted to race a DF01 in the Iconic Revival, so I went on ebay and found a used Manta Ray with a few hopups for a low starting price.

And then promptly forgot to bid on it and watched as it sold to somebody else for a stupidly low amount.

And then found another with less good bits and a higher BIN price, which I foolishly bought.

And then did a deal with a friend of mine for a much-used but generally sound and solid Top Force Evo.

So, as it happened, Evo became the race car and the Manta Ray has been robbed every summer since then for spares to keep the Evo on the track at the Revival.

And there it might have remained, if I didn't have a particular problem to solve.  See, the Evo has the centre one-way installed.  This means demands a particular driving style and makes for a challenging car in wet weather.  And given I only really race it at the Revival, which is generally held on the last weekend in July in order to catch the rain that is ordered in specially for the WOMAD music festival that takes place on the same weekend, it's always wet at Revival*.

So, back in 2018, as I was slithering around in the corners wondering why I didn't just open up the front gear casing and swap in the bevel gear from the Manta Ray, I had a genius idea: rebuild the Manta Ray as a wet weather car.  Roughly the same componentry as the Top Force, but stick with the tub chassis for better waterproofing**, is less rigid and therefore a bit more forgiving in slippery conditions, keep standard gearing front and rear, and softer suspension for better grip.  Since I already had the chassis and a bunch of bits to attach to it, it shouldn't have been an expensive conversion.

Which doesn't explain why it's taken until early 2021 to actually get started.  I'm not sure anything can explain that, besides me being too lazy and getting too involved in other projects.

Well, after stripping the Top Force Evo a few weeks ago and realising it needed more work done than I first thought, I decided, in for a penny, in for a pound, and splashed out on all the stuff I'd need to convert the Manta Ray at the same time.  On the slow boat from China (slow but fortunately fast enough to get through the Suez Canal before the Ever Given) were multiple sets of Arrowmax titanium turnbuckles and some Tamiya reinforced rod ends.  There weren't enough Tamiya rod ends in stock so I also got some RC4WD M3 rod ends locally.  These aren't ideal as they're quite bulky and need a screw to secure them (as opposed to pressing onto a threaded ball stud like Tamiya ends) but at least they properly list their dimensions, unlike so many cheaper alternatives which have been bought and gone straight into the junk pile because they are designed specifically so they don't actually fit anything at all.  I also got a couple of plastic gear sets, a Top Force suspension mounting parts tree, and some Fibre Lyte Top Force Evo shock towers.

Here is a pick of all that nonsense, alongside the gutted Manta Ray chassis.  Note the accidental mistake with the Tamiya Hop Up part bag, which is actually a steering turnbuckle kit for my G6-01 which I picked up by mistake.

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So, with nothing better to do on a chilly, bright and intermittently showery Sunday, I started hacking everything together.

*Except in 2020, when it was held on the first weekend of September #becausepandemic, and it was dry all weekend

**Actually, the Top Force comes with a lexan undertray.  Arguably it is better at keeping water out of the electrics than a Manta Ray tub

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First of all I dismantled the back end to check the diff.  This turned out to take much less time than expected because there wasn't one.  Obviously at some point in the distant past I have borrowed it for something else and not put it back.  So, a new rear diff is on the cards.  It might as well be a ball diff, so I can fine tune it for wet weather traction.

I opened the rear gear case to find everything in order, then reassembled it with extra-long machine screws and nuts to clamp the case down on the awesome torque that will come from whatever motor I decide to throw in it.  Oh, while doing that I noticed I didn't have a spare motor mount either, so that's another thing on the shopping list.

Then I fitted the Evo-style shock tower.  The Manta Ray has previously led an interesting life, and has the regular self-tapping screw on the right-hand shock tower fitting, and an M4 machine screw on the left.  That isn't really ideal, so I refitted with a self-tapper on the right (the plastic felt like it had plenty of bite) and a long M3 machine screw and nut on the left side.

Fitting the rear turnbuckles was easy enough.  I went with 41mm, the closest I could get to Evo spec of 42mm.  For the inner mounts I used the Tamiya reinforced rod ends and Tamiya threaded ball nut, as clearance is limited, but for the outside I used the cheaper RC4WD rod ends.  There's plenty of meat to screw into on the aftermarket alloy hubs.

The front was a similar story.  I had to fit the Top Force front shock tower mount from the plastic parts tree, then mark and drill out the upper-middle mounting point for the front upper arms, as this was missing on my Fibre Lyte tower.  Not sure why as this is the stock mounting position according to the Evo manual.  Again, I needed to use Tamiya reinforced rod ends and ball nut because of clearance from the front gear case, but on the outside I could use the RC4WD ends with a long machine screw into the plastic hub.

I had previously ordered a CVA shock kit for the Manta Force, but was informed it was out of stock and not expected for a couple of months, so in the interim I have added some basic alloy shocks that I have had lying around for over a decade.  They're actually not too bad a shock but they haven't been used in ages, one is partially seized and they need fresh oil.  For now I only need them to stop the arms flopping around.

I noticed after all this that the front and rear shock towers didn't line up, as if the chassis was twisted somewhere.  It seemed to be situated in the front, so I popped off the entire front section, cleaned it up and re-assembled with longer self tappers, as some of the screw holes are starting to feel like a wizard's sleeve.  Re-assembled, everything looked a lot better.

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I didn't have any dimensions to go with for the turnbuckle static lengths, because the Evo manual only lists the space between the rod ends which is only relevant if you're using Tamiya rod ends at both ends of the turnbuckle.  In this case I was using RC4WD ends, so all coordinates are wrong and I knew the suspension would need to be set up on the board, so I didn't bother with a static setup, I just gave each turnbuckle a nominal 4 turns at each end to get it well seated.

Which is why it hit the deck with a comedy stance.

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Still, 10 minutes or so with a turnbuckle turner and everything was starting to look a bit less Austin Metro and a bit more Tamiya race buggy.

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Front suspension not entirely level because one of the shocks isn't fully extending for some daft reason.

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With the chassis reassembled, I thought I'd see if I could make the Manta Ray body fit with the Evo towers.  Using the nostalgic Manta Force name kind of necessitates a Manta Ray body.  Fortunately the body that came with the car 4 years ago is a perfect donor for hacking apart - all I had to do was narrow the nose and file in some slots to slip over the front tower.  I'll have to make a rear body mount later as I don't currently have one (or, more specifically, I do, but I borrowed it for the Top Force).

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Obviously the final buggy will have a wing.  I have an aftermarket Manta Ray body but not sure if I have a Manta Ray style wing, however that doesn't matter because I have some proper racing wings which will give the finished project a bit more of a pedigree look, even if they make no appreciable difference to the handling.

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I had a chance to reassemble the Manta Force a couple of weeks ago (I haven't had a chance to update the thread until now!)

The chassis was complete and rolling, but it was missing a rear diff and had no electrics.

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NIB ball diff assembled and fitted

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Complete, with Hobbywing ESC, Etronix 17T motor, and a Penguin wing which I think is for an old RC10.

A quick blast outside revealed the diff was too loose - it took two attempts to tighten it up before it would run without slipping.

The shocks (only cheap ones that I've had for many, many years) seem to work very well and absorb the bumps from bouncing over lowered kerbs in the lane behind my workshop.  It will get a chance to run around a proper astro track on Saturday.

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On 5/25/2021 at 9:06 AM, Mad Ax said:

The shocks (only cheap ones that I've had for many, many years) seem to work very well and absorb the bumps from bouncing over lowered kerbs in the lane behind my workshop.  It will get a chance to run around a proper astro track on Saturday.

So this little post came back to haunt me last night.  I shouldn't really post stuff like this, because it makes it seem like I know what I'm talking about when in fact I'm just making it all up as I go along.

Anyway, the shocks in question have had an interesting history.  I bought them early-ish in my return to the hobby, sometime in the mid-00s, probably to upgrade a Wild Dagger chassis, and then attached them to a King Blackfoot chassis that I got from ebay.  That chassis also got some other donor parts, including a new set to Tamiya tyres mounted to some HPI Super Star wheels and a lexan re-release Brat body painted in red to look a little like the Mud Blaster I had as a kid.  Repro decals weren't so easy to get back then, so I fell out of love with it and traded the whole thing in exchange for having the clutch replaced in my Citroen Xantia Estate, affectionately known as l'Escargogo.

Anyway, the person who took the KBF off me is an old friend and also a master of destruction.  He had a way of destroying pretty much everything.  I had hoped the KBF would escape, since I doubted he'd ever use it (it was a bit of a rubbish payment offer, really).  Anyway, over a decade later (actually in the Eye of the Storm that at the time we called Summer) it came back to me by way of a belated birthday present.

I'll save a complete update on the state of the poor KBF for another thread, but one of the few parts I had hoped would escape the Wrath of Neil would be the shocks.  I mean, you can't really break a set of shocks, right?  Besides a bit of corrosion on one of the springs (I swear he could make plastic rust) and being covered in floof, they looked OK.  So when I needed a temporary shock for the Manta Force, they seemed like the perfect option.

Roll on to last night when a mate popped over to drop off some 3D printed parts (including some new battery clips for the Manta Force), and I showed him the Manta Ray.  Instinctively I went squidgy-squidgy on the suspension to demonstrate the awesome supple smoothness, and realised there was absolutely no damping on the front right corner.  The front left was better but none of the rears had much damping either.

Immediately I remembered the above post, and realised I'd dug myself a hole that I'd either have to climb out of or simply sidestep by not drawing attention to it.

Anyway, moving on, I pulled off the front left shock to find the circlip that holds in the O-rings was hanging around the shock shaft.  I hadn't noticed it before because it was covered in floof from Neil's carpet.  Sadly I don't have pics because the camera is all cleared down and packed ready for the weekend.  Perhaps, then, the O-rings had leaked and all the oil had come out.  I took out the plastic bush and O-rings - there are actually 3 plastic bushes in the bottom of these shocks, acting as guides, with the O-rings sandwiched between them.  Quite a good design especially compared to some shocks that have no proper guide at all besides the hole in the bottom of the damper body.

Refilling with oil meant pulling the shock top off.  Actually there was plenty of oil still in there, so why was there no damping?

I pulled out the shaft and piston to find the e-clip that mounts below the piston was missing.  Not come off or broken, but completely not there.  So at some point this shock has been pulled apart, the e-clip removed, and then reassembled.  So the shaft must have been going up and down inside the piston and having very minimal damping effect.

Rightie-ho, then.  O-rings and guides back in place, piston re-fitted to shaft, e-clip fitted, shaft back through damper body...  whereupon the sharp edge on the bottom of the piston caught on the O-ring and squoze it out through the bottom of the guide in little flakey pieces.

Gah!  I'm used to assembling Tamiya shocks, the piston will easily go through the O-ring if there's a little bit of oil on it.  IIRC the instructions even say to assemble this way.  I guess the proper way to do these ones is to insert the shaft first, then fit the guides and O-rings, although getting the circlip in place with a shaft poking through must be a bit of a pain.

So, with these shocks out of action pending finding replacement O-rings (I've probably got some but the shock spares box is already packed for the weekend) and the Top Force Evo also out of action with a binding transmission (no idea what's up there, that's another thread all by itself) and not wanting to start my Saturday morning with a wrenching session, I quickly pulled the shocks off the Top Force.  Of course these have a wider bore and the adjuster collar fouls on the carbon towers, so I had to pull all the other mounting bits off the TFE too.

In other words - a quick "hey, check out my Manta Ray" rapidly turned into a frantic wrenching session to get what I had thought was a ready-to-go runner actually ready to go the moment I take it out of the box on Saturday morning...

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I think we all know a 'Neil', though I think that's a cover name.

Glad you got it sorted, it all adds to the mythology of the event that hasn't even started yet - looking forward to a standard @Mad Ax write-up.

And I may adopt the word 'floof'. There's plenty of that in my house!

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6 hours ago, Badcrumble said:

 

@Mad Ax

Axd I may adopt the word 'floof'. There's plenty of that in my house!

I tend to make up lots of words but my 4yo is cleverer than me and she keeps telling me I'm saying it wrong. But I think I have convinced her that floof is actually officially a word and now she says it all the time.

Btw I didn't leave my name in your post on purpose, I just can't seem to delete it. I think the forum has a buge

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On 5/28/2021 at 12:21 PM, Badcrumble said:

Buge. I like it :D

It's great.  It rhymes with sluge (slimy thing in your garden) or pluge (thing that stops the water coming out the bath, or thing you pluge into the wall to get electricity from)

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I took the Manta Force to Tamiya Junkies last weekend and gave it some track time.  Not enough track time, in honesty, but at least I got a taste for what it's like on astro.

In short - not as good as I'd hoped.  I think I had too much ground clearance at the rear, it wanted to roll a lot and was a bit vague in the corners.  I was going to focus a bit more on rectifying that, but then a screw pin came out up front and it lost a dogbone, and back in the pits I spotted a tyre had come unglued as well, so I abandoned it and drove something else.  I probably should have put more time into running it there.

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Someone has obviously had some fun and games with those screw pins before...

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Also, within the first few minutes of running I caught the back wheel on a barrier and pulled the thread on one of the rear turnbuckles.  The one that came out was a brand new Tamiya reinforced ball cup (open face) that I had only fitted a few weeks before, so not exactly that reinforced :o it threaded in again with no problems and didn't show any further signs of wanting to come out, but I'll have to watch myself on track and try not to drift sideways into things.

I also noticed it was pretty slow with the 17 turn Etronix Sport Tuned motor.  There is more timing available on the motor, but perhaps those Sport Tuneds aren't as fast as they make out.

Back home I fixed the screw pin and replaced the dogbone and then went onto the back lane to give it a test-drive.  It was quite slow, and making a whining noise.  Gah, I'm sure I tightened that new ball diff up before I went to Junkies!

Out comes the diff - sure enough, it's tightened all the way in, and I can't make it slip by holding the gears and turning the wheels.  It feels fine.

I stripped it down anyway, and noticed this.

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LAME!  That looks like a Botas' wheel nut!!

That's a brand new ball diff that's not even had a full pack put through it.  My fault, though - running a ball diff without appropriate packing in the diff cups.  I think there's even a note on the instructions about that!

The drive cup itself is in better shape, and there's still plenty of spline in the diff body, so reassembled with some threadlock and some rubber o-rings in the cups and it doesn't want to go anywhere now.  The suspension still moves fluidly and a few test-runs up and down the lane reveal no whining noise, plenty of speed and a solid-feeling car.  Fingers crossed I can get back on the astro again to make sure I'm totally happy with it, and then start some tuning.

I've also purchased a set of GMade aeration dampers to go on it.  Those big-bores are temporarily borrowed of the Top Force.  TBH I was going to go with Tamiya CVAs but I just can't seem to get any at the moment.  If the Aeration dampers work out well then I'll install them on the Manta Force, if they don't then they can go on Durandal and the CVAs on Durandal can go on the Manta Force :)

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A late update on my progress from 13th June - my GMade shocks arrived.  These are aeration dampers from the XD series.

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Assembly is straightforward although (as usual) the instruction aren't quite as clear as good old T.  They went together without any hassle.  The cartridge at the bottom of the shock has a proper guide for the shock shaft as well as two seals, so it should resist any sideways movement.

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There are two options for filling the shocks.  You can assemble the top cap, fill with oil, the insert the piston and cartridge assembly and let the oil bleed out the bottom, or you can insert the piston and cartridge first, then fill with oil (the conventional Tamiya way), then screw the top on.  One was called the "low pressure setup", one "high pressure".  However, in the same vein as my CFX-W shocks that I built last year, if I tried to build in "high pressure" form they just locked up solid and didn't move at all.  These aeration shocks don't have a reservoir like a CVA, they have a bleed screw so you can bleed just the amount of air you need directly into the oil.  I'm not sure if this is better, but it's certainly easier.  However, having built both shocks in different ways, I found the tension was identical in both.  A shock can either be locked because there isn't enough air, or it can move freely, and that's it.

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I built the front shocks with some spacers from my shock spares box.  The shock shaft is wider than that of a CVA (I think 4mm vs 3mm) so CVA spacers don't fit, but I had other spacers that did and gave just the right length for the Manta Ray front end.  To maintain the same amount of overall travel, I removed the rubber bumpstop from the front shocks.  Manta Rays always ran fine without bump stops before, I don't see why this car should need them.

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As you can see, I had to run a really crazy shock angle and loads of preload on the rear to get the right spring rate.  The fronts feel OK but obviously these shocks are designed with crawlers in mind (despite the blurb saying they're suitable for buggies).  I need to fit a stiffer rear spring - tuning options are available but I didn't have time to get my order in yet.

While I was there, I also found the rear shock tower was loose and could be twisted on its mounts.  I've had this on my Top Force using the same Fibre Lyte rear tower, and I had assumed it was due to wear, but this tower is new and has seen literally a few minutes track action.  I think the problem is my use of an M3 screw instead of a self-tapping screw - I guess the self tappers are slightly wider and the carbon fibre is drilled for that width, so it moves on the machine screw.  I tightened it down and it seems OK for now but I might have to insert a locating lug like I did with the Top Force.

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I was desperate to get this car on track before Revival, as I didn't want to have an epic disaster with a car that wouldn't handle and no parts to tune it, so despite everything the world threw at my family over the last week I managed to get away from home to do another 400+ mile round trip to Robin Hood Raceway for another awesome Tamiya Junkies meet.  There I would have unfettered access to a proper astro track to at least get a baseline setup on the old Manta Force, and at least have the opportunity to buy some springs and other tuning parts if I needed them.

However, the stars can only align for so long, and the plastics on this original Manta Ray are past their best.  I was less than half a lap in to my first test when I popped a steering balljoint, which turned out to be a failed bell crank.

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While stripping down the front end I also found a crack in the gearbox housing.  This explains why I had a hard time getting the car to sit level and why it sometimes looked twisted.

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I thought I had a spare bell crank, but it's from a Top Force parts tree and the entire assembly is different.  I have enough bearings and threaded rods to make up a new assembly in the workshop, but I didn't have anything at RHR to do that, so the Manta Force was thrown back into its box in pieces.

The good news is that with the diff fixed, the 17T motor felt punchy enough and it seemed like it handled nicely.  I will get a stiffer spring for the rear end and will also build a set of CVAs as a backup in case I can't get these ones working on race day.

Also I thought I'd take this opportunity to plug my special battery clip design again.  I made these for the CC01 to keep the battery wire from pushing out the Landfreeder body, but they work well enough on these chassis too and keep the balance lead out of harms way.

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I originally printed these in resin but they were too brittle.  These are made in PLA (I think) by a friend, and I confess I managed to snap off the R-clip mount during a race with an FF01, so they might need some more work there, but there's limited space to work with as they need to fit through the existing chassis hole.  Perhaps ABS would be a better material.

If you want some of these, you can download the Thing from here:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3879684

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Sunday 18th July, and in 2 weeks time I should be racing this car around BMR's off road astro track with a host of other Manta Rays, Top Forces and contemporary race cars.  But here it is on my workbench, missing a steering arm and with a cracked gearbox housing.

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I had the plastic arms from a Top Force sprue, which is an improvement over the Manta Ray version, having bearing-supported pivots and a stronger adjustable turnbuckle in place of the flimsy wire link.  Mounting locations on the chassis are in the same place:

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However there is a problem: the Top Force has some stand-offs that bolt onto the chassis plate, with a 5mm dia post for the steering cranks to fit over.  The Manta Ray has points for self-tapping screws.  What I needed was a 5mm dia bushing to go over a 3mm self tapper, but I didn't have anything in the right size.  If I switched from 850 to 840 bearings then I could use the ubiquitous Tamiya step screw, but 840 bearings are wider, and therefore the step needs to be longer than it is to prevent binding when screwed down tight.  So - this is a no-go without getting hold of more parts.

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So - an order was quickly placed for a stock steering parts tree.

After that I turned my attention to the front gearbox housing, which was cracked:

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This was replaced with a new part.  Then I found a bent dogbone, which I fixed it 'itting it wi'ammer

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A week later, the weather was somewhat cooler but the day was my own and I still didn't have a working car for 4wd day at Revival.  Just one week to go before race day, I had to get these cars running.

Fortunately, my new steering parts had arrived

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With the cranks fitted, I could make up some turnbuckles

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With the chassis back together, I could fit some stainless hinge pins.  These are from a TL01 kit, which is pretty cheap.  Rear fits fine, although there's a bit of overhang on the outer pin.

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Up front is a different matter.  The smaller pins are way too long.  However the standard front pins aren't in great shape, in fact one of them was missing and had been previously replaced with an ugly flat-head screw and locknut.  Well, needs must, so I replaced both sides with stainless bolts and locknuts.

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Another job that gone done but not documented was assembling and fitting a set of Tamiya CVA shocks.  Previously I had fitted those GMade XD shocks but I had to have the adjuster turned right down on the rear to keep it stiff, obviously they need a harder spring, but I never felt entirely happy that they are a buggy shock.  They feel more like they belong on a scaler or monster truck.  So, they'll be going on Durandal once race season is over and I have time to focus on other projects.

Before the day was done, I placed an order for a Racecraft body on ebay.  Currently delivery looks like Thur or Fri this week, I hope to leave at 8am Fri, so if the new body isn't here before midday Thur I'll have to trim and paint the Penguin RC Manta Ray repro body instead.  I was hoping to get the proper Racecraft body as it has an undertray, and it's looking like it might be a wet race day.

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What an adventure that was!  I ordered a Racecraft body from Penguin on ebay last Monday, but the estimated delivery window overlapped with the start of the Revival.  If it didn't arrive before Friday then I wouldn't have it in time, and it if arrived last Thursday I'd have to paint it at the Revival.

It hadn't turned up by Thursday morning, so I took some coffee breaks in the sunshine to paint up a Kamtec Manta Ray repro body I had.  It came out pretty well in my race colours.  However, as soon as I pulled off the overspray film the doorbell went - the postie had my Racecraft body!

So a few more coffee breaks were had, and the body was cut, washed, masked and and sprayed.

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The undertray is very useful if racing in wet conditions.

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Trimmed to fit

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A couple of hours later, painted and stickered:

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All Revival entrants are assigned a number which stays with them for life.  This a) saves the hassle of changing number spots every time I change place from heat to final, and 2) means I can incorporate my driver number into my livery.  I made the number deliberately bold so the commentator could identify the car.

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All the turnbuckles are Arrowmax, so using up all those decals I got seemed fair.

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I don't paint my wings these days - they never look right painted.  Plus they break so often it's not worth the hassle.  I think this is an old RC10 wing I got given a few years ago.

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Not bad for something that arrived just a couple of hours ago, and with only a couple of hours left in which to pack the van before bed and an early start!

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