Jump to content
wintersdawn

540 vs 550 brushed motors

Recommended Posts

I have been doing some speed tests with tamiya sports tuned 23t and maverick 550 15t motors but have not found much of a difference.  I think I read somewhere that 550 motors have lower rpm, so maybe not the upgrade I thought it was.  I have found a traxxas titan 550 that is supposed to be more powerful/fast but am moving now towards brushless to obtain a significant speed increase.

Any advice appreciated, cheers. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

I have been doing some speed tests with tamiya sports tuned 23t and maverick 550 15t motors but have not found much of a difference.  I think I read somewhere that 550 motors have lower rpm, so maybe not the upgrade I thought it was.  I have found a traxxas titan 550 that is supposed to be more powerful/fast but am moving now towards brushless to obtain a significant speed increase.

Any advice appreciated, cheers. 

Never played with the 550 motors, with a cheap ,sensorless brushless system costing £50 (you can get cheaper, but you're into a lucky dip if they run well ,or not)  never been a consideration.

For a bit more money, (about double) you can get a reliable sensored system ,I run a 10bl120 with a 6.5t Speed Passion motor in my race truck, and it's given me a 2nd in the A final at a regional event.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to think of a 550 upgrade as like fitting a bigger engine in your car. It gives the option for more power but you have to give it more fuel. In electrical terms that means more voltage.

550s really excel with 3S plus, where 540s can overheat on 3S depending on level of tune and load applied, and will burn out fast on 4S, a 550 will happily pull 4S and/or won't overheat when asked to provide torque for a heavy car or high gearing.

In many cases a 550 won't be any faster than a 540 in the same voltage. Actually my mod clod felt just as fast with 3S silver cans as with 4S Titan 550s, but the Titans would uproot a tree while getting there.

550s are also very amp hungry so if you don't have high C batteries you might send your ESC into cutoff mode.

What car are you running it in? Most 1:10 scale is better off with tuned 540s IMO, unless it's something heavy like a monster truck or needs a lot of torque like a crawler

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mad Ax said:

I like to think of a 550 upgrade as like fitting a bigger engine in your car. It gives the option for more power but you have to give it more fuel. In electrical terms that means more voltage.

550s really excel with 3S plus, where 540s can overheat on 3S depending on level of tune and load applied, and will burn out fast on 4S, a 550 will happily pull 4S and/or won't overheat when asked to provide torque for a heavy car or high gearing.

In many cases a 550 won't be any faster than a 540 in the same voltage. Actually my mod clod felt just as fast with 3S silver cans as with 4S Titan 550s, but the Titans would uproot a tree while getting there.

550s are also very amp hungry so if you don't have high C batteries you might send your ESC into cutoff mode.

What car are you running it in? Most 1:10 scale is better off with tuned 540s IMO, unless it's something heavy like a monster truck or needs a lot of torque like a crawler

Cheers for the info.

I ran my Tamiya Nissan Titan with a Tamiya Sports Tuned 23t motor, powered by a Gens Ace 5000mah 7.2v NIMH battery and got readings of 18.9 mph, 19.2 mph and another occasion 20mph but maybe that was with a tail wind!

I put the Maverick MM-550 15t brushed motor into the Titan today, using the same pinion gear and battery and got 18 mph.

I understood that going from 23 turn to 15 turn would give more power/higher top speed but this has not been the case, possibly due to the limit of the battery, as you said.  I did find the Traxxas Titan 12 turn brushed motor gave a 22 mph speed in one r/c vehicle but still not worlds different.

Still not sure I need more speed and whether going brushless will be too difficult to control when accelerating at high/full power on forest tracks (where I mainly run my r/c's) but think its time to find out.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

Still not sure I need more speed and whether going brushless will be too difficult to control when accelerating at high/full power on forest tracks (where I mainly run my r/c's) but think its time to find out. 

Depending on the esc, you can dial the 'punch' down and make it less aggressive. Also, depending on your radio, you can turn the End Point down and/or alter the throttle curve, so it's dosile upto half throttle, for when you don't need earth shaking power.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Depending on the esc, you can dial the 'punch' down and make it less aggressive. Also, depending on your radio, you can turn the End Point down and/or alter the throttle curve, so it's dosile upto half throttle, for when you don't need earth shaking power.

Cheers, good ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine if I used 2s/3s lipo with the maverick 550 15 turn brushed motor in the Nissan Titan I would get a better top speed out of it compared with my 7.2v nimh but not sure how much more or whether going brushless would still be better.

The HPI esc in the Nissan Titan is 2s/3s compatible and looking at the manual it doesn't mention the need for a fan when using lipo so I could start by just using lipo with the 550 and see what happens power/top speed wise.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2s will give you around 1+ volt more , but also more amps, so I'd expect around 25 mph jumping to 2s (from the 20mph), maybe more.

Jumping to 3s, will be 1/3 more again, so , the maths says ,34mph.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 550 Titan motors as well as the stock silver can motors are all using metal bushings and plastic inserts where the input wires and brush holder assemblies pass through the can.  All of these items get hot when operating on 2s at load (i.e. use in trucks) or for considerable time or at  3s.  Aside from use in one monster truck, I'm steering away from them because I think they will just wear out over time and need replacement.  Quality rebuildable brushed motors at least have proper cooling allotment for the same respective parts and bearings can be used as well to further enhance efficiency and reduce operating temps.  GoolRC motors or Tamiya BZ/RZ motors seem much more adept for this task for reasonable cost, considering you won't be replacing an entire motor, just brushes/springs over time.Traxxas 1585 Titan Marine 550 Motor Villain ExRM7283-1-b512-ar0w.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

2s will give you around 1+ volt more , but also more amps, so I'd expect around 25 mph jumping to 2s (from the 20mph), maybe more.

Jumping to 3s, will be 1/3 more again, so , the maths says ,34mph.

That sounds promising, cheers. I've stayed (probably too long) with NiMH and now believe, thanks to help from this thread, that whatever turn motor I upgrade to, if the available power source remains the same I won't see much, if any, increase in speed.

The only thing is, the hpi ESC has of course got the Tamiya plug fitted but I believe I can get an adapter for whatever the plug is on the lipo I get. I wonder though if I'll lose a bit of power using an adapter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Killajb said:

The 550 Titan motors as well as the stock silver can motors are all using metal bushings and plastic inserts where the input wires and brush holder assemblies pass through the can.  All of these items get hot when operating on 2s at load (i.e. use in trucks) or for considerable time or at  3s.  Aside from use in one monster truck, I'm steering away from them because I think they will just wear out over time and need replacement.  Quality rebuildable brushed motors at least have proper cooling allotment for the same respective parts and bearings can be used as well to further enhance efficiency and reduce operating temps.  GoolRC motors or Tamiya BZ/RZ motors seem much more adept for this task for reasonable cost, considering you won't be replacing an entire motor, just brushes/springs over time.Traxxas 1585 Titan Marine 550 Motor Villain ExRM7283-1-b512-ar0w.jpg

Thanks for the info. These maverick 550 15 turn brushed motors are only £12 so I wonder if they would have replaceable parts. Also wonder if I should skip the lipo/brushed motor step and go to lipo/brushless, although have read that this combo doesn't always result in higher speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your goals are longevity, abundance of power and low maintenance, then brushless all the way.  In the long run, you will save money by not having to replace things so long as you pick a proper set-up that won't overheat.  I chose to use brushed motors on my vintage RCs that were designed before brushless motors were a popular option.  Even still, I try to get the most out of them by optimizing performance with bearings and then doing proper maintenance when needed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

Tamiya plug fitted but I believe I can get an adapter for whatever the plug is on the lipo I get.

Ditch the tamiya plugs, 

Even running nicad bitd, once you went past a stock motor ,to modified, they turned to a bubbling mess, as they can only handle something like 5 amps. 

My 6.5t powered truck eats through a 3800mah battery in 6 mins, so an Average of 38Amps, the Tamiya plug wouldn't stand a chance.

That's one of the beifits of Lipo, the discharge, or C rating ,is massive compared to other chemistry.

I believe nimh are around 5C, so a 3800mah nimh battery ( can provide 3.8 Amps per hour) would have a max discharge of around 20amps (5 X 3.8)

The 3800mah Lipo of mine ,has a discharge of 65/110C, so a continuous of 247amps ,with a possible 10sec burst of 418 Amps......

On my bashers, I'm in the UK , I run Deans (T plug), as there's more lipo stick battery choice. Seemingly other countries have gone down the XT60 route. Either way, they're both rated to 60amps, so can stand much more Amp abuse.

My race cars have bullets, and plug straight into the battery.

My 10bl120 / 6.5t truck, from fully charged ,to cut off

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

Ditch the tamiya plugs, 

Even running nicad bitd, once you went past a stock motor ,to modified, they turned to a bubbling mess, as they can only handle something like 5 amps. 

My 6.5t powered truck eats through a 3800mah battery in 6 mins, so an Average of 38Amps, the Tamiya plug wouldn't stand a chance.

That's one of the beifits of Lipo, the discharge, or C rating ,is massive compared to other chemistry.

I believe nimh are around 5C, so a 3800mah nimh battery ( can provide 3.8 Amps per hour) would have a max discharge of around 20amps (5 X 3.8)

The 3800mah Lipo of mine ,has a discharge of 65/110C, so a continuous of 247amps ,with a possible 10sec burst of 418 Amps......

On my bashers, I'm in the UK , I run Deans (T plug), as there's more lipo stick battery choice. Seemingly other countries have gone down the XT60 route. Either way, they're both rated to 60amps, so can stand much more Amp abuse.

My race cars have bullets, and plug straight into the battery.

My 10bl120 / 6.5t truck, from fully charged ,to cut off

 

 

No wonder I can't get above 20 mph with a nimh (5C discharge)/tamiya plug (5 Amp max) combination, regardless of the motor.  Slowly learning what makes the difference after using nimh batteries and tamiya plugs always.  Cheers for all the info and video, lovely back yard you have to run them on.

The next step then is to rewire my ESC (Maverick MSC-30BR-WP), below with either a deans or xt60 connector so I can use a lipo battery.  I can get a fan for £5 to help keep it cool and carry on using my 550 brushed motor and hopefully break the 20 mph barrier.

MV30001_2.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve used “cheap” sensor less brushless systems before from GoolRC and and Onyx. 
performance on 2S is pretty.

Some of the cheaper sensorless systems can shudder and cog a bit in some applications , which can make lower speed precision and control a bit of a problem. 
Other than that they can be quite brilliant. 
that’s to say nothing of better Brushless systems 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

The next step then is to rewire my ESC (Maverick MSC-30BR-WP), below with either a deans or xt60 connector so I can use a lipo battery.  I can get a fan for £5 to help keep it cool and carry on using my 550 brushed motor and hopefully break the 20 mph barrier

Switching to Deans of XT 60 is a switch you will not regret. 
If you don’t already have soldering skills it is a little intimidating at first, though. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might have saved myself some time changing to a lipo battery to power my Maverick 550 15 turn brushed motor as watched a youtube video where someone did the same and on 2s they got 21 mph and on 3s the motor went up in smoke (although it was a 30 degree celsius day).

Seems more and more like I should just go for a brushless system and miss out the lipo/brushed motor step.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought a 550 motor was just a 540 motor with a fan fitted inside making it 10mm longer than usual??

Maybe they're not all like that though?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

550 motor has a longer armature inside. That's why if you have a 540 and 550 with the same number of turns, the 550 will be slower because the wire is a greater length if you unwound it. The 550 has a torque advantage though and can run cooler all else being equal.

Sealed can style motors have room for a fan inside. There are 540 motors with fans too. If you compare a 540 motor with a fan to one without you will see the armature is the same size and there's some empty room inside. It's different with mod style motors as the end bell has the removable brush holder incorporated into it.

If you want to use one then go for it. You can always try gearing it up as it has greater thermal headroom than a 540. I wouldn't guarantee it will run 3s though, like any motor it depends on gearing and load etc. The Traxxas 550 motors are notorious for burning out but only people people try to run them on 3s or 8 cell nimh all the time whereas they are more suited to 2s.

Its true though that you may find a cheap brushless combo a better/easier upgrade. Either spend about £50 and get a dead cert or you can go lower and take your chances, especially if you use paypal and can get your money back. I have combos that cost under £25 that have worked brilliantly but you have to be prepared to play QC lucky dip and get a refund and order another in a worst case scenario. Literally never had a bad motor out of dozens but the speed controllers can sometimes be hit or miss. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

550 motors will pull more gear than a 540. That 15t 550 motor, properly geared, will be faster than a sealed can 23t 540. The Titan 12t 550 can be pretty fast when geared for a five minute run, although the lifespan will be fairly brief. 

There's quite a bit of production variance in sealed can commodity motors, so some are faster than others. Tamiya "Tuned" sealed cans are very nice quality and don't seem to have as much production variance. Sealed can motors really benefit from a water break in, probably because it helps to wear in the bushings without any load.

There's still plenty of room in our hobby for brushed motors. They're economical, fun to mess with, and provide good, controllable performance in lighter vehicles. Tamiya connectors, however, are next to worthless for any kind of performance or longevity.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Big Jon said:

There's still plenty of room in our hobby for brushed motors. They're economical, fun to mess with, and provide good, controllable performance in lighter vehicles. Tamiya connectors, however, are next to worthless for any kind of performance or longevity.

This is an accurate statement. 
Not only good controllable performance in lighter vehicles, but they are pretty popular in the scale and crawler scene as well. ( For all the same reasons mentioned above ) 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Dakratfink said:

This is an accurate statement. 
Not only good controllable performance in lighter vehicles, but they are pretty popular in the scale and crawler scene as well. ( For all the same reasons mentioned above ) 

They're just right for occasional runners, too. A $15 17t is zesty in a lot of stuff; a Torque or Sport Tuned is the perfect match for comicals on Lipo, and so on.

My higher performance stuff gets good brushless systems. I've run my trail truck near constantly for more than eight hours, something that I wouldn't try with a brushed system without a few spares.

The easy availability of good, inexpensive brushed systems is making a whole spectrum of RC more fun.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers for the info.

With not a lot else going on r/c wise, decided I will change the ESC plug so that I can use a 2s lipo to run the 550 15t brushed motor in my Maverick SC basher and do a speed test to see if it can go higher than the previous 18 mph (with NIMH).  Also ordered some bigger compatible pinion gears that should give slightly better top speed.  I went from 15 tooth to 17 tooth already and gained 2.3 mph on the top speed.  As I mainly run my bashers on forest tracks with a loose top surface, at full throttle the Maverick SC was a bit of a handful so increasing the pinion gear teeth might tame the acceleration a bit.  I don't believe I have punch control available in my ESC so can use the pinion gear/transmitter throttle EPA to achieve a similar result, hopefully.

IMG_5691.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...