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toyolien

Help with painting Willy. What did I do wrong?

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I've just finished painting a Willy driver for my Comical Avante. Did the usual sanding, filling and sanding of the join line. All looked nice and smooth, so I primered and painted it:

AXpAdyK.jpg

However, now that it's all dry, the join line has appeared:

HAYIJ9z.jpg

 

What caused this? I used Tamiya putty to fill and Tamiya white primer and TS paint. Any ideas?

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The two halves were just ever so slightly misaligned, and when you tightened the screw down to attach the head to the torso, it twisted a bit.

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I tighted the screw just after I'd applied the glue to hold it tight. Then once the glue was set I then did the sanding and filling etc... 

Just re-read your reply. You meant the screw that holds the head to the body... I see. I think i could see the join line before i attached it. But can't be 100% sure...

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5 minutes ago, toyolien said:

I tighted the screw just after I'd applied the glue to hold it tight. Then once the glue was set I then did the sanding and filling etc... 

There are two screws, right? one to hold the parts of the head together and the other to attach it to the body. 

When the screw attaching it to the body was tightened, it applied some kind of pressure to the head, which made the two halves of the head flex, and then your join reappears. 

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Hmm. I would have thought the bond would have been strong enough to prevent this happening. Never had this issue before. And, i always add a red 'o' ring on the screw to take some of the load. I'll see how the next Willy head goes...

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The seem if filled with solvent filler can takes days to fully dry,even weeks if a lot was used. sometimes the paint can soften the filler enough to show,if the paint is solvent based. I learnt this from years of model kit making. if in a rush use super glue to fill the seam/gap,not as easy to use but no shrinkage at all.

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Tamiya primer and TS paint tends to shrink a lot compared to other paints to capture details of molded plastic.  So it just basically did its job to capture the fine details of the surface.   

My Tamiya putty is the basic gray one in a tube.   I often times do 2-3 putty applications when the plastic does not align correctly.   Sanding is usually finished using Tamiya's #1000 or #1500 depending on wear of my sponge.  

An easy way out is to use enamel instead as it hides surface imperfections better. 

That said, your helmet looks fine unless you wanted a glass like finish..

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4 hours ago, Gazzalene said:

The seem if filled with solvent filler can takes days to fully dry,even weeks if a lot was used. sometimes the paint can soften the filler enough to show,if the paint is solvent based. I learnt this from years of model kit making. if in a rush use super glue to fill the seam/gap,not as easy to use but no shrinkage at all.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I've chopped up lots of crawler hard bodies and re-bonded using MEKK. I've never had an issue with it before so did wonder whether the issue was with the Tamiya cement taking ages to dry. Never really liked using CA as a bonding agent though. Guess I should just leave it to cure longer.

5 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

Tamiya primer and TS paint tends to shrink a lot compared to other paints to capture details of molded plastic.  So it just basically did its job to capture the fine details of the surface.   

My Tamiya putty is the basic gray one in a tube.   I often times do 2-3 putty applications when the plastic does not align correctly.   Sanding is usually finished using Tamiya's #1000 or #1500 depending on wear of my sponge.  

An easy way out is to use enamel instead as it hides surface imperfections better. 

 

My mistake, on this occasion i didn't use Tamiya putty. It was Squadron Green putty which I have used a fair amount in the past. Thanks for the tips. I've got some Vallejo acrylic paints coming to have a go with. I now need to practice my brush painting skills. I tend to rush it!!!

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Toyolien - I have not used Vallejo acrylics, but if that is thin like Tamiya acrylics, it may be a very frustrating experience as it takes forever to dry for brush painting!  :lol:

I only use Testors enamel for brush painting unless acrylic lexan paint where solid colors can be applied by a soft fan brush.  

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No surprise here, the solvant in the spray cans softens the putty underneath, even if there are many coat of paints in between. It's usually okay until you do the last wet coat hoping to achieve a good finish. Then you end up with that.

After ruining a few paintjobs, I now only use 1 component putty like the tamiya ones to correct very very small defects. Whenever you have to fill a gap, 2-components putty is the way to go. The hardener will prevent the solvant from attacking the putty. Other good solutions are using CA glue, styrene dissolved in acetone or 2-components epoxy.

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16 minutes ago, didcos said:

No surprise here, the solvant in the spray cans softens the putty underneath, even if there are many coat of paints in between. It's usually okay until you do the last wet coat hoping to achieve a good finish. Then you end up with that.

After ruining a few paintjobs, I now only use 1 component putty like the tamiya ones to correct very very small defects. Whenever you have to fill a gap, 2-components putty is the way to go. The hardener will prevent the solvant from attacking the putty. Other good solutions are using CA glue, styrene dissolved in acetone or 2-components epoxy.

Fantastic thanks. The last coat was a thicker coat to get the glossy finish. Never heard of 2 part putty. I'll have a quick google. Thanks for your advice, much appreciated. 

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28 minutes ago, toyolien said:

I find Tamiya paints frustrating a little. Vallejo paints were recommended here, so thought I'd give a coupe a go:

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/willy.asp

 

 

Sounds good.   It is different from how I paint my Willy's and Billy's, but fun to see other ways to paint it.  GL with the painting.  

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11 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

Sounds good.   It is different from how I paint my Willy's and Billy's, but fun to see other ways to paint it.  GL with the painting.  

What's your preferred method, if you don't mind me asking?🤞

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53 minutes ago, toyolien said:

Fantastic thanks. The last coat was a thicker coat to get the glossy finish. Never heard of 2 part putty. I'll have a quick google. Thanks for your advice, much appreciated. 

Personnaly I like to use JBweld. Easy to apply and sands really well. Only downside is the long drying time (20 hours). 

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4 hours ago, toyolien said:

What's your preferred method, if you don't mind me asking?🤞

I'm no modeler or doll maker so bare with me.. it's very rudimentary.  Probably a good example NOT to follow~ :lol:   

I start off assembling the helmet using gobbles of Tamiya cement.  Like 'buddy, you put waaaaaaay too much on there!' but it's really not.  Let dry for a good 24hours or so, then sand off the excess cement (#120 to #400 sanding block in sequence), putty where needed, let dry 24 hours.  Then sand again to a final surface (#1000 or #1500 sanding sponge) and either TS spray the helmet with no masking of the face regardless of color, or begin painting the face using enamel if I know I will be brush painting the helmet as well in enamel.

After the initial TS base coat (dry 2hrs), I can tell whether there is any need for another application of putty or move onto painting the face.

Face I just start with a gloss white enamel for the eyeballs. Then use flat enamel foundation skin color (mix of flat white, yellow, red) and begin applying the facial area.  Then flat black enamel for the big black eyeball dots.  While that is drying I work on the eyebrows, eyeliner, then going back to the flesh color, I add a little more red and a dab of thinner.  Using a thin brush I apply the thinned blush colored enamel to the cheeks while blending into the foundation color.. I'd take a slight dab of more yellow/red mix to give skin tone on the nose and forehead, etc.  

Then whatever eye color I choose, dab over the 2 big black dots on the eyeballs..  while that is drying, I paint the helmet cloth area (sides of face).  Then a small black dot in the center of the eyes.. followed by 2 dots each of white gloss placed diagonally for reflection.. 

Then finish brush painting the top of helmet, in my case whatever camo design I feel like doing.  The camo paint I use is very thin to the point it will run unless I constantly keep turning the helmet and blowing at it to accelerate the drying.  This prevents any brush stroke/streak marks (kind of like enamel retardant).

Final step is painting the black trim around the helmet opening and bottom.

image.png.5747f19380bac35972e11081cf4ef489.png

One of the left below is a failed product and he never got a chance to ride one of my M38's.  The problem I had was this figure had BLOBS of paint from the original owner and I could not tell very well the facial features and ended up messing up the eyes. I can fix it, but I've seen people with eyes like this so thought I'd just keep him as is for his character since I have so many new Willy figure trees anyway..

IMG_Apr142021at40825PM.jpg.aedd5632d374f894c102dc574f4daacb.jpg

IMG_Apr142021at40848PM.jpg.65c8bc5b1549bd0a7d74dff4003ce83d.jpg

Some others I posted before somewhere in the daily activities thread..  I don't have a dedicated thread so..  

IMG_Apr92021at104208AM.thumb.jpg.77c2c545fcd9ccc9398e6993c6ede6b8.jpg

 

IMG_Apr22021at60735PM.thumb.jpg.9f402ef4860bc510ce526fce16157aab.jpg

Some others..

image.png.fb320b611aaa947629cb4ae11a57b4d6.png

image.png.c41c8942731c26dc9d6509ff84c06386.png

 

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I use liquid polystyrene cement to glue the helmet together, and have never needed to use filler on them so far.

Making sure to keep the joint vertical so that excess liquid glue runs down the seam rather than between my fingers and the part, I apply a fairly generous amount to the joint and clamp gently together.

As the plastic melts and welds together, the pressure from the clamp pushes material outwards from the joint. Effectively self-filling. When sanded smooth it looks like the 2 halves of the helmet were moulded as a single part.

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As the plastic melts and welds together, the pressure from the clamp pushes material outwards from the joint. Effectively self-filling. When sanded smooth it looks like the 2 halves of the helmet were moulded as a single part.

The above statement is the preferred method of a "seam" join.  When you come to sand all the area is the same material,so all sands the same way BUT  again if a "hot" glue like MEK,TET  etc was used it can take days to fully dry under the surface. some thick wall styrene like ship hulls can take weeks to dry properly. its a chemical reaction which remains. if you heated the styrene till it was very soft then let it dry it would sand and never shrink,no chemicals.

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All good points about the helmet joint.  I am a guy of simple so all I use is a gobble amounts of this cement, hold by hands for 10-12 min with mild pressure, then let the cement take its course for 24 hours or so with no clamping.  

On Billy’s helmet I only torque down the screw just enough to keep the halves together and let the cement do the work   

IMG_Apr92021at50233PM.thumb.jpg.df13b35ad9b9ca80bf985ec8274f9742.jpg

Same principle applies to the spare tire on the Willy Jeep bodies.  Cement, sand, putty, sand, paint.   I have no seam line there either.   

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2 hours ago, Willy iine said:

I am a guy of simple so all I use is a gobble amounts of this cement, hold by hands for 10-12 min with mild pressure, then let the cement take its course for 24 hours or so with no clamping.  

It sounds like we're doing the same thing. Tamiya cement is liquid poly by the look of it, and the clamp is because I'm too lazy to hold it together for 10-12 minutes.

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If you want  a 2 pack filler try Isopon P38 more commonly used as car dent filler. Easy to sand though best done outside or with a mask as the dust can be a little aggressive!!

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Failing that try plastic welding. Basically you put a piece of plastic sprue in a drill and then use it as if you are trying to drill along the join. The friction melts the sprue and the plastic and welds them together. Google for better description!!!

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10 hours ago, Fuijo said:

It sounds like we're doing the same thing. Tamiya cement is liquid poly by the look of it, and the clamp is because I'm too lazy to hold it together for 10-12 minutes.

So during the 10-12 min I continue to inspect the joint to make sure it is aligned the best it can.  Sometimes I apply additonal pressure on one of my fingers to align the radius of the helmet.

This is just my experience, but with a clamp and setting it aside, the pressure is uniform but the pieces aren't uniform and can shift on occasion as I do not apply that much pressure to begin with..which has ended up with more sanding and putty later to fix the misalignment.  

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So toyolien, what ever happened afterwards?  Any updates, any comments on my lengthy post?   Did any of it help or provide insight/other angles?

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Sorry. Been meaning to reply.  We're in the process of moving house so I'm having to do viewings most evenings. I did read through your post and promise I'll reply in the next few days...👌

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