Motors. Brushed over Brushless? Nostalgia or not?

[toyolien 4677]

I'm about to build another Wild Willy 2 and have a TBLM-02S motor I was going to use in it. I also have several brushed motors I could use and it got me thinking. Are there any advantages of using a brushed motor over brushless these days? They are heavier, less efficient, require more maintenance etc...

So, other than for nostalgic reasons why should I use a brushed motor?? 👍

[Willy iine 18805]

Brushed to me is still a lot more variable in speed, which make them easier to drive the RC in small space.  But I am talking about silver and black cans, if going for speed and power in open space, I would run brushless for sure. 

I still have my old brushed mod motors and a lathe, but don't use them any more..

I am also into cordless power tools as I am a 1:1 scale car guy and for high torque applications I only use brushless motor impacts and drivers.  However when I work on wood for house projects, I use a modern brushed motor driver/drill as it is also easier to control.  

[catman79 346]

i think in this day and age, if you are planning on using the model rather than shelfing it, brushless every time, longer run times, less maintance, more power. its a no brainer to be honest. you could easily run a cheap sensor-less system and wheelie all day long.

i'm a bit of a vintage collector, and have done a few iconic revival's, first one i did i wanted to run brushed for the nostalgia, but ill be honest it wasn't as i remembered, changed to brushless for the next events and haven't looked back. 

on another conversation all together,  lipo's also the way forward, cells have had their day, ask anyone that's made the change and they will tell you the same.  

great choice though the ww2 is a cracking car

[Frog Jumper 3658]

IMO, there is only one reason to use brushed motors:  they are cheap.

Terry

[markbt73 5315]

I stick to brushed motors because I can't stand the "feel" of brushless. There's something cold and clinical and notchy about the way they accelerate, it "feels digital" if that makes any sense. There's no sense of work being done to accelerate the car; it just is going one speed, then going a different speed, and it's really off-putting to me.

But I don't care about speed in the slightest, and 540 silver cans come with almost every kit anyway, so the choice is simple for me.

[Nikko85 3443]

I agree about the small space. I had two 1/15 turcks, one 540 powered and one with a  2030 motor. The 540 was powered by quite a cheap ESC, but it had a really nice acceleration curve, and was so smooth, I could drive it around the kitchen. The brushless felt binary, aggressive and stuttery at low speeds, but once in a park the brushless was so much more fun.

[Cynan 520]

I use brushed as it’s what I’ve always used and the fact I’m using them in cars that were not designed for anymore more powerful and I don’t want to run the risk of breaking hard to get parts. I also think they look nicer and are period correct.

Now if Tamiya were to release a new 4WD buggy with modern drive drain that could handle it with parts a plenty then I would invest in the best brushless motor I could get and do for sheer speed and power. Of course that’d also mean a new charger, lipos, to use Deans or XT60 etc 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

If you already have the brushless, then that's great. Having said that, I built my Comical Hornet with a 13.5t brushless and because it's so low geared it actually seemed quite slow. Seems to me you get the best out of brushless when you can gear it really tall and get that torque working. I enjoyed the Comical much better with a cheap 1060 knock off ESC and 21t brushed motor in it. Seemed like the motor suited the gearing better. Having needed to run brushed in a couple of my iconic race cars recently, I have to say I'm a lot less sniffy about it than I used to be. For a basher the cost of a sensored brushless system is probably 3-4 times the price of brushed, so that's a serious consideration, and I would have a cheap brushed system over a cheap sensorless brushless any day. Those have horrid throttle feel. At least brushed motors have nice feel.

[whahooo 465]

I do not own any Brushless Systems, because i don`t need much Speed. So i don`t have any expierience with them.

 

BUT in youtube Videos the brushless Motors seem so sound awful ^^

I know thats the last reason to choose a Motor for a Toycar, but it seems that the Brushlessmotors sound very cold and metalic.

They remember me of a Dentisttool....

The brushed Motors sound like they schould sound.

 

I think there are really 2 reasons for brushed Motors:

1.) they are cheap

2.) Crawlers - a brushed Motor can get wet, you can drive them underwarter if you want and a 55t Motor ore something like that is easily controllable. I dont know if there are slow brushless Systems.

[Mrowka 493]

My one Tamiya buggy has a brushed motor, because I hate continually rebuilding gearboxes.

My Kyosho re res have brushless, because they can hold the power. Whether that is because of the slipper clutch or not, I do not know.

[Dakratfink 967]

As someone who runs both, I will add a few thoughts. 
First, Lipo batteries really wake up a brushed motor. Everything said about brushed motors being less efficient is true, but, the added Discharge rate and capacity of a Lipo pack makes a brushed motor a lot punchier than the same motor on Nihm cells.  My “nostalgic “ tamiyas ( old school Hornet and ReRe Pumpkin ) run 2s Lipo into stock silver can 540s . The Hornet can wheelie on a standing start on grass with this combo. 
A lot of the Scale Solid Axle Monster truck racing leagues require brushed motors in both their Mod Clod and Shaft driven Trucks .
The precise control and throttle feel of a brushed system being more precise is true “for the most  part” . A sensor less brushless system can be subject to “cogging” at low speeds . But this varies by esc to esc and my the application. 
I bought a cheap GoolRC sensored set to put in my pumpkin and it clogged on startup a lot .  I put the brushed set up back in and installed the same brushless unit my my Stampede which is Heavier with bigger tires and has room for a higher capacity and C rate Lipo and it runs like a dream. The very same setup . 
 
Now sensored systems are whole different ball of wax. They have the precise feel of a brushed system with the speed and efficiency of brushless. However they are usually more costly.

Fast, Cheap, Reliable  Pick 2 of 3

[toyolien 4677]

Thanks for all the replies, some interesting comments.

I used to build and compete in 2.2 comp crawling some years back and would always use brushed motors for that application. Brushed motors have a much nice low end throttle feel (brushless systems are catching up now though) and the drag brake is much stronger with a high end brushed motor.

I also would not use a cheapo sensorless brushless system. The only one I've ever had felt horrible, so now I'd only ever use sensored.

With regards to batteries, I have both 2s and nimh packs. But for some reason my brushed cars only run with nimh, and my brushless car use lipo. I think for this build I'll try Willy with a nice brushless/lipo set up. It should wake him up a little bit.

[isomer1 175]

To follow up on one of @whahooo's points: what about water resistance? I'm guessing (but please correct me)

1. Beach runner I'd probably want a closed brushless, sensorless to minimize salt in the system. And the wide open area makes sensored control less necessary, and mitigates need for the control cable.
2. Wet yard runner I'd want brushed? Just want to get it dried off well afterwards?
3. Dry runner either brushed or sensored brushless for control in tight spaces.

I have not made the Lipo leap. I fear flames and the 5000+ NiMh packs last a good 45 minutes in my WR02.

[toyolien 4677]

31 minutes ago, isomer1 said:

I have not made the Lipo leap. I fear flames and the 5000+ NiMh packs last a good 45 minutes in my WR02.

What motor is that with?

[isomer1 175]

13 minutes ago, toyolien said:

What motor is that with?

Backstory: I get bogged down with THUD (Tamiya Hop-Up Disease, sometimes known under different acronyms). To the point that I get the kits half built but don't finish cause I'm inevitably waiting for some other part. Soooo... I bought one of the Factory Assembled WR02 sets, 57985. Also it's the only way I know of to get the black WR02 style wheels. I just run it around the front/back yard with no body on, cause I'm not overly partial to bodies. Only change I made was to swap out the more-precious-than-gold black wheels. Side note: this was back before prices went insane during lockdown, RCJAZ now wants $110 USD just for shipping... 

So to answer your question: this is the base standard silver can with a 5100mAH NiMH speedpack 2 from Dynamite. I run about 15-20 minutes at a time. Recharge the battery every 3-4 runs.

[Wooders28 4722]

Mine are either 15t firebolt / 1060 or brushless. The only reason I've got the 15t firebolts, is the cost, I was getting a 1060 and the firebolt for around £20 at one point , but the Goolrc brushless combos are only £30 these days! (Ok, 50% more expensive)

I don't believe it'll be too long, before tamiya supply a brushless motor with some of their kits, their esc's have been brushless capable for ages (and the new esc has Lipo cut off!!! ) and costs are coming down (although granted, it would need to come down a fair way to beat the £3 silver can...) 

I think I've been spoilt with quick race cars. A silver can with Nimh just seem pedestrian ,almost wind up toy fast, 

[Frog Jumper 3658]

20 minutes ago, isomer1 said:

THUD (Tamiya Hop-Up Disease).

Hilarious!

[toyolien 4677]

26 minutes ago, isomer1 said:

Backstory: I get bogged down with THUD (Tamiya Hop-Up Disease, sometimes known under different acronyms). To the point that I get the kits half built but don't finish cause I'm inevitably waiting for some other part. Soooo... I bought one of the Factory Assembled WR02 sets, 57985. Also it's the only way I know of to get the black WR02 style wheels. I just run it around the front/back yard with no body on, cause I'm not overly partial to bodies. Only change I made was to swap out the more-precious-than-gold black wheels. Side note: this was back before prices went insane during lockdown, RCJAZ now wants $110 USD just for shipping... 

So to answer your question: this is the base standard silver can with a 5100mAH NiMH speedpack 2 from Dynamite. I run about 15-20 minutes at a time. Recharge the battery every 3-4 runs.

Haha I've been suffering with that for a couple of years now. The WR-02 is a trigger for it. I've built 3 now, all fully hopped up and am about to start a 4th!! 

[Frog Jumper 3658]

My THUD virus has mutated from ORV variety to Dragon variety...  it’s really a shame...

Terry

 

[nowinaminute 2815]

I mostly use brushless but I have nothing against brushed. It mainly comes down to reliability and temps. Brushless is more efficient and runs cooler per the same RPM so you can either get a brushless motor of similar speed and it will run cooler or you can get a faster one and it will run the same temps despite much greater performance or even a little of both.

One of the most common specs for cheap brushless motors is 3300KV, it's almost like the entry level for 1/10 yet it's roughly the equivalent of a 13-15t brushed in terms of speed yet will run cooler than a 27t silver can and the brushes will never wear out and it has bearings that can be easily replaced. It's hard to ignore the benefits.

I like to drive off road a lot such as on dirt, grass and sand and that obviously puts a lot of load on a motor and I just find brushless motors handle that a lot better. I've cooked 3 brushed motors at the beach, they got so hot that the magnets were virtually dead afterwards. I've yet to kill a brushless motor yet, though. It even extends down to my toy grade conversions, I've had a few toy grades where I tried to upgrade the tiny 280 or 370 size motor to a faster one and it would just incinerate itself. Put in a 280 size brushless though and suddenly it's faster and impossible to kill.

While cheaper speed controllers can be variable in terms of QC, I've yet to have a duff motor and sometimes you can get them for as little as £10-£12. They aren't as good as a more expensive brushless motor but they will wipe the floor with pretty much any brushed motor for power and longevity.

I quite like the sound they make too, they tend to be more vocal and prominent than brushed motors which I guess is a marmite thing.

There's one area where brushed still rules IMO though and that's cheap rock crawling and trailing. To get a low end response as smooth as a brushed motor from a brushless setup, it either needs to be sensored or your need an ESC with incredibly good startup algorithms that can eliminate cogging such as a Castle ESC. Either way it costs a fair bit more than a brushed system. They are a no brainer choice for crawlers and trail rigs. 

Saying all of this, I'm more than happy to use a brushed motor still if it's adequate for my needs. Plenty of my older stuff runs brushed still, especially stuff I don't drive very hard or often. They are a great, simple option for testing stuff out too if you just need something that's easy and fast to setup. I always have a brushed motor and esc laying around the place whereas my brushless stuff tends to always be inside a vehicle.

And I still pick up the occasional brushed motor just to try out, I got a couple of old Overlander Hurricane 650 motors a while back because I saw them cheap. Massive things they are. I think I'm going to try them in my Gen 1 E-maxx. And I have a huge Dewalt drill motor waiting to go into a Summit. In both cases, brushless would give better performance but the brushed is adequate and I like pottering with stuff just for the sake of it.

[Willy iine 18805]

4 hours ago, isomer1 said:

I have not made the Lipo leap. I fear flames and the 5000+ NiMh packs last a good 45 minutes in my WR02.

I have a bunch of 2S Lipo's but as you mentioned, I can't babysit the batteries while charging (fire hazard) all the time so I've placed mine in a metal container at storage voltage and only check the voltage every 3 months.. I have not used them in my cars for over 3 years.  I may never will again besides these small 1:18 scale sized 2S I run in my M-Four.

I run NiCD and mostly NiMH these days, and basically only drive my M38 Willy's and WR02/WR02CB/m-chassis.  With 3000mAh, I drive them 12min at a time on a timer and 4 runs per charge.  So about nearly your WR02 run time, but my driving is very mild to slow.  I'm too old to drive fast and more about enjoying the view of my M38's and various RC 'models' moving around.  It's very peaceful and relaxing to watch.

 

[Nicadraus 6197]

I have a lot of brushed motors. Mostly new (purchased from 2018 to present). Always been a fan of it since the times of Technigold, Dynatech, Checkpoint, Kyosho Le Mans series, Reedy, and many more. But the brushless to me is more fantastic. And I'm talking about sensored ones. I most enjoy the boost and turbo. I find the blinky setting to be a little bit boring to be honest. When the turbo and boost kicks in, the fun begins. Plus the sound. Imagine listening to a V8 Mustang (brushed) vs a V12 Lamborghini. The V12 is simply music to any motor-head. 

I currently have two Toro TS160 brushless ESCs and a 17.5t motor (installed in my FF-03 Pro-R). I just ordered another 21.5t motor to pair with the other TS160 which will go to my XV-01. Since I've built the XV-01 last year, I've already consumed 2 brushed motors (21t & 17T). It's about time to go brushless too. But my other kits will remain with brushed. I'm also slowly upgrading all HW 1060 ESCs to 1080. The 1080 is just better in many, many ways.

[Cynan 520]

5 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

Imagine listening to a V8 Mustang (brushed) vs a V12 Lamborghini.

I am tempted to try brushless but this right here puts me off. Got to say I much prefer the sound of a V8 Mustang than that of a Lamborghini!

[catman79 346]

just another note, i have noticed a few people mentioning the feel of brushed motors, and i agree a cheap sensorless brushless system can feel a bit washy, but a sensored system will feel very much like the old brushed systems just without the braking from the motor. and a decent brushless system can be tuned how ever you like, even with a tad of drag brake to recreate the feel of brushed. depends on peoples budgets and needs i guess.

[Nicadraus 6197]

5 hours ago, Cynan said:

I am tempted to try brushless but this right here puts me off. Got to say I much prefer the sound of a V8 Mustang than that of a Lamborghini!

Well, someone who has never heard the real V12 engine roar or ridden one is most likely to say that.

Try driving or at least riding an actual V12 (or even V10) Lamborghini. Floor the accelerator and hear the engine howling and roaring behind you. Then you'll know what I'm talking about. You just might forget what a Mustang is.