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toyolien

Motors. Brushed over Brushless? Nostalgia or not?

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5 hours ago, catman79 said:

just another note, i have noticed a few people mentioning the feel of brushed motors, and i agree a cheap sensorless brushless system can feel a bit washy, but a sensored system will feel very much like the old brushed systems just without the braking from the motor. and a decent brushed system can be tuned how ever you like, even with a tad of drag brake to recreate the feel of brushed. depends on peoples budgets and needs i guess.

A sensored brushless system can be tuned more than a brushed can. Both in the ESC and the motor timing adjustment.

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11 minutes ago, Nicadraus said:

A sensored brushless system can be tuned more than a brushed can. Both in the ESC and the motor timing adjustment.

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just edited my post, realised i put brushed instead of brushless... just to confuse matters even further!

 

 

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The feel has to do with something similar to analog vs digital audio.   Some folks like me prefer analog as I'm from the analog age.  I'm also a musician (another hobby of mine) and own a small home studio where I run my masters through a tube compressor to get that analog sound.  It's just preference to have that variability in texture that is not regenerated or simulated digitally. 

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1 hour ago, Willy iine said:

The feel has to do with something similar to analog vs digital audio.   Some folks like me prefer analog as I'm from the analog age.  I'm also a musician (another hobby of mine) and own a small home studio where I run my masters through a tube compressor to get that analog sound.  It's just preference to have that variability in texture that is not regenerated or simulated digitally. 

I also prefer analog but with a touch of digital as well for convenience. I have a collection (and still collect) of vinyl records and I also specialize in Technics turntables service/sales/custom work (check out Works1200). While I also like the technology of bluetooth streaming with an instant playback of music from a phone source. :)

Sorry for the off-topic. 

Going back to brushed/brushless system, I also like the less maintenance of the brushless plus cleaner to run with out carbon dust from the brush.

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Yes, me too.   I am not against digital nor brushless motors.   As with analog sound and brushed motors, there is a time and place for it, I think.  

I own a few ThunderPower brushless motors and they perform somewhat brushed-like which I like.  

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4 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

Well, someone who has never heard the real V12 engine roar or ridden one is most likely to say that.

Try driving or at least riding an actual V12 (or even V10) Lamborghini. Floor the accelerator and hear the engine howling and roaring behind you. Then you'll know what I'm talking about. You just might forget what a Mustang is.

I have heard and driven one. We are all different and like different things.

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Period brushed for completeness- and just for interest/nostalgia as many of them look really cool like dyna tech, Le Mans or demon power and seeing what difference was there in this motors I could never get.

sense says brushless for general running as sensored brushless is just so much more efficient.

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Well the whole reason I started getting back into RC was for nostalgia, and I wasn't paying attention when brushless got popular, so brushed motors still seem like a no-brainer. I'm no racer, just a casual runner, and I had a blast driving my cousin's brushless Slash, but I don't need that kind of speed where I typically run, and my vintage chassis can't handle it anyway. Both my old Frog and Mud Blaster will do nearly 30mph on a 6-cell NiMH with 17T brushed motors, which is plenty fast for me. I don't need stupid wheelies whenever I punch it too hard, I just want good solid power to have some fun with. I think the only way I would go brushless is if I ever happen to pony up for a brand new kit, sort of a "spared no expense, let's go uber fast" build. Probably the same thing that would happen if I won the lottery and bought a Lamborghini I suppose :ph34r:

Also, I run old brushed motors because I can't bear to throw them away. I don't want to create more waste. And brushless seems like just another non-rebuildable, throwaway thing that ends up in a landfill when it inevitably dies. I'm still using all the same brushed motors I started with 25 years ago, and they were old back then!

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I don't think brushless has to mean silly fast speeds. There are mild brushless motors that are similar speeds to a stock brushed motor but are just way more efficient. 

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19 minutes ago, toyolien said:

I don't think brushless has to mean silly fast speeds. There are mild brushless motors that are similar speeds to a stock brushed motor but are just way more efficient. 

As @Nicadraus said, it's possible to programme a (decent) sensored brushless set up to do anything you want it to, turn the punch down for docile, turn the punch up and add boost and some turbo for warp factor 10, adjust the drag brake for engine braking you want etc etc.

But decent isn't cheap....

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17 minutes ago, toyolien said:

I don't think brushless has to mean silly fast speeds. There are mild brushless motors that are similar speeds to a stock brushed motor but are just way more efficient. 

Totally true. Many people on those Vintage buggies just overdo it with silly fast motors. But for efficiency and runtime and cooling problems, why not use a sensored brushless system? I like to get second hand brushless motors from e.g. Speed passion for my runners. You get them for 20€. Together with a kit TBLE02 sensored ESC, which can be bought for another 20€ from some sellers, you get an ultra reliable, smooth and not overpowered setup, when staying with 17,5t or 13,5t. I´ve 17,5t in my Monster beetle and Sand scorcher, and it´s just great on the beach. 13,5t in my Avante 2001, no problem at all and no cooling problems, which was one flaw of the Avante platform running hot brushed race motors. 

Each to their own, I still have my comm lathe from the wild racing days and recently reworked some old brushed motors for me and my buddy, but I know the flair of both worlds. And a fully closed brushless motor is also nice, when fine dirt is all around...

But price or sensitivity is really no argument nowadays, especially talking of sensored systems...

Just my 2 cents.

But for hazzle free "quality time" on those special days driving my Vintage Tamiyas, I am nowadays thankful for 2 main things:

A good 2,4Ghz radio,

and a reliable Brushless motor... :lol:

 

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Not very experienced driver but found the mid power sensorless brushless combo I had was too powerful for my DT03. Not much throttle control with a very on/off feeling. Cogging was very noticeable. Only place it was fun was the open beach. 

Changed back to the kit ecu with a 21t sensored Speed Passion brushless and it’s completely different.  Very controllable and no cogging. Not hugely faster than Torque Tuned but good initial punch and longer run time. Standard ecu settings give same feel on neutral throttle but not as good braking. Sure this can be tweaked but it’s a lot of awkward button pressing on a Tamiya ecu. Posher ecu with programming card or similar would make this much easier. 

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20 hours ago, El Gecko said:

Well the whole reason I started getting back into RC was for nostalgia, and I wasn't paying attention when brushless got popular, so brushed motors still seem like a no-brainer. I'm no racer, just a casual runner, and I had a blast driving my cousin's brushless Slash, but I don't need that kind of speed where I typically run, and my vintage chassis can't handle it anyway. Both my old Frog and Mud Blaster will do nearly 30mph on a 6-cell NiMH with 17T brushed motors, which is plenty fast for me. I don't need stupid wheelies whenever I punch it too hard, I just want good solid power to have some fun with. I think the only way I would go brushless is if I ever happen to pony up for a brand new kit, sort of a "spared no expense, let's go uber fast" build. Probably the same thing that would happen if I won the lottery and bought a Lamborghini I suppose :ph34r:

Also, I run old brushed motors because I can't bear to throw them away. I don't want to create more waste. And brushless seems like just another non-rebuildable, throwaway thing that ends up in a landfill when it inevitably dies. 

I believe you should do more research before making that claim. :ph34r:

Brushless motors requires less maintenance than a brushed motor. That has been mentioned already. The rotor is replaceable in case it breaks which happens only when overdriven or abused. Unlike with a brushed motor which the commutator gets consumed as well as the brush. So you have more parts to dispose and faster to replace than a BL motor, and that's obviously more waste that will end up in the landfill.

I've had BL since 2018 and I have not replaced anything yet. That motor was given to me by a friend who owns a local hobby shop. He had already used the motor for a series of touring car races since 2016. So technically, it's already a 5 years old motor and not a single part has been replaced yet. 

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13 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

I believe you should do more research before making that claim. :ph34r:

Brushless motors requires less maintenance than a brushed motor. That has been mentioned already. The rotor is replaceable in case it breaks which happens only when over driver or abused. Unlike with a brushed motor which the commutator gets consumed as well as the brush. So you have more parts to dispose and faster to replace than a BL motor, and that's obviously more waste that will end up in the landfill.

I've had BL since 2018 and I have not replaced anything yet. That motor was given to me by a friend who owns a local hobby shop. He had already used the motor for a series of touring car races since 2016. So technically, it's already a 5 years old motor and not a single part has been replaced yet. 

It would help if you quoted my whole message. The last sentence is the clutch: all of my brushed motors are MUCH OLDER than 5 years and are still running just as good as new. Even the original 35 year old silvercan in my Hornet is just as fast as it should be. Zero maintenance on that motor other than a little lube on the bushings, and I get over an hour of thrashing on a 5000mAh NiMH.

As I mentioned, I'm not a racer, I'm not pushing the limits to be the fastest or have the longest runtime, and I'm completely fine with brushed motor maintenance because I'm familiar with it. Lubing the bushings/bearings, cleaning the comm, and replacing brushes when they get worn out is literally the extent of it. I have never owned a comm lathe because I haven't needed one. FYI - armatures can be replaced just like rotors so that's a moot point. The only pieces of any of my motors that have ended up in a landfill in the last 25 years are the used up brushes (with the shunt wires cut off to be reused, of course).

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Another big component of this is interchangeability. Since all 9 of my chassis run brushed motors and speed controllers, all with the same connectors, I can switch motors, speed controls, batteries, etc. between them anytime and in any combination. If I went brushless, that motor/ESC combo would have to stay in one car together as a unit, which wouldn't allow me to change things around as easily, and I would need an adapter to connect the brushless ESC to my batteries.

I also don't want to be required to use a computer to set up an ESC or motor just so the car is actually driveable. I'm on the computer too much for my job as it is, and my cars are an escape from that. Brushed motors (and even their ESCs in a way) are simple electric circuits and might be less efficient electrically, but for me and my usage, they are supremely more efficient in every other way.

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On 5/14/2021 at 11:59 AM, Nicadraus said:

:)

Sorry for the off-topic. 

Going back to brushed/brushless system, I also like the less maintenance of the brushless plus cleaner to run with out carbon dust from the brush.

I’m sure there is lots of overlap on a Venn Diagram of HiFi audiophiles and RC nerds. 

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1 hour ago, El Gecko said:

Another big component of this is interchangeability. Since all 9 of my chassis run brushed motors and speed controllers, all with the same connectors, I can switch motors, speed controls, batteries, etc. between them anytime and in any combination. If I went brushless, that motor/ESC combo would have to stay in one car together as a unit, which wouldn't allow me to change things around as easily, and I would need an adapter to connect the brushless ESC to my batteries.

I also don't want to be required to use a computer to set up an ESC or motor just so the car is actually driveable. I'm on the computer too much for my job as it is, and my cars are an escape from that. Brushed motors (and even their ESCs in a way) are simple electric circuits and might be less efficient electrically, but for me and my usage, they are supremely more efficient in every other way.

I get your points, but they don´t apply nowadays if you refer to sensored systems. Yes, you can adjust a lot on some ESC´s, but you don´t have to. Same as on a very basic brushed ESC, or a High quality brushed ESC. And motors you can swap around in your models, too. On a Tamiya TBLE02 kit ESC you can drive a brushed or a brushless, that is a great thing in my eyes for beginners. I´ve also brushless motors older than 10 years, why should they die earlier and create more waste than a silvercan? To be honest, none of your arguments is strong enough. It´s no personell offense, it would be just too sad if anyone doesn´t give Brushless a try because of your statements. And that´s probably what @Nicadraus wanted to say, too. Just my guess... Give brushless a chance....:)

Kind regards,

Matthias

 

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2 hours ago, ruebiracer said:

It´s no personell offense, it would be just too sad if anyone doesn´t give Brushless a try because of your statements.

Well, I can understand where you are coming from with that statement. I deleted my earlier post which stated I preferred brushed but understood there were reasonable powered brushless setups only to be immediately followed by a post saying brushless doesn't mean "silly fast speeds", when I admitted there were reasonable powered brushless setups in my post but still preferred brushed. Its like being told I'm wrong for preferring the feeling of brushed motors. I own a programmable brushless motor/ESC combo. I can tune it anyway I want. For me, I like brushed better. If I raced, had more modern buggies or used my equipment in different ways, maybe I'd feel different. I still use MSCs in some of my cars, and believe me, I was considered crazy by most for still liking them in some cases. Whatever @El Gecko's reasons are for staying brushed, whether his arguments stand up in a court of law, doesn't matter.  If they make sense to him and he's happy, that's all that matters.

I do agree that total misinformation shouldn't be spread in an effort to discourage newcomers from trying new things. I'm sorry for sharing my opinion (which honestly means little, its just works for me personally) if it offends anyone. I'm not trying to start an argument or cause any hard feelings.

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19 hours ago, El Gecko said:

I can switch motors, speed controls, batteries, etc. between them anytime and in any combination.

 

Why would you even switch ESCs? Brushed ESCs now are dirt cheap. Switching them from time to time is simply a hassle and inconvenient in my opinion. Why not just put one ESC of the same kind on each of your kits if you feel that one model/certain ESC is best for your kit. That's pretty common sense. No offense intended here.

 

19 hours ago, El Gecko said:

 If I went brushless, that motor/ESC combo would have to stay in one car together as a unit, which wouldn't allow me to change things around as easily, and I would need an adapter to connect the brushless ESC to my batteries.

 

FYI: brushless ESC and motors can also be switched just like brushed ESCs in case you didn't know.

19 hours ago, El Gecko said:

I also don't want to be required to use a computer to set up an ESC or motor just so the car is actually driveable. I'm on the computer too much for my job as it is, and my cars are an escape from that.

There are program boxes/cards to just connect to a brushless ESC and tuning can be done there. Even a 10 year old kid can do it without problems. No need for a computer if you or any user didn't want to. But I personally like tuning my BL ESC in the computer.

19 hours ago, El Gecko said:

Brushed motors (and even their ESCs in a way) are simple electric circuits and might be less efficient electrically, but for me and my usage, they are supremely more efficient in every other way.

For your usage... But not in general. I'm/we're not forcing you are anyone to go brushless if you don't want but once you try it, you'll definitely take your words back.

I have no means to personally offend you with my reply but your reasons above are just pointless. Stubbornness just because of "nostalgia" doesn't make your assumptions and experience accurate. It sounded that you're speaking for the general "nostalgia/nostalgic" RC people. I also have a part of the "nostalgic" in me as I started this hobby back in the mid 80s. The time when I was struggling to save up my allowance to be able to buy parts and upgrades until I got my first job and was able to afford the things I want. On and off in the hobby but I was always updated. I also adapt to newer technology and see the advantage(s) and disadvantage(s) of both. I don't close my eyes to other and newer things to try just because I'm a racer or not. That "I'm not a racer" statement of yours is such an invalid reason as well. Basher or racer, brushless systems can be very efficient to anyone who's willing to learn and try more about it and not by just judging on what they read or saw on the internet. Expanding your knowledge about many things can be fruitful too. There's no harm in trying.

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Most of the bad brushless experiences are from non sensored and/or high output brushless.

Hopefully with good amount of info people are better able to select suitable models.

Brushless, LiPo and 2.4 ghz radio are just progress.

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I mostly sold all my brushless motors. Having now about 5 cars them all being brushless. Only the m02 is brushed. 

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17 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Whatever @El Gecko's reasons are for staying brushed, whether his arguments stand up in a court of law, doesn't matter.  If they make sense to him and he's happy, that's all that matters.

I think it's really easy to forget that this isn't a hobby that is logical, or needs to be logical, it's just fun. I'm sticking to brushed motors with NiMH batteries, as they are pretty simple, and the cars I have fitted with them fulfil my requirements for having fun, so I concur fully with your comments here.

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20 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Well, I can understand where you are coming from with that statement. I deleted my earlier post which stated I preferred brushed but understood there were reasonable powered brushless setups only to be immediately followed by a post saying brushless doesn't mean "silly fast speeds", when I admitted there were reasonable powered brushless setups in my post but still preferred brushed. Its like being told I'm wrong for preferring the feeling of brushed motors. I own a programmable brushless motor/ESC combo. I can tune it anyway I want. For me, I like brushed better. If I raced, had more modern buggies or used my equipment in different ways, maybe I'd feel different. I still use MSCs in some of my cars, and believe me, I was considered crazy by most for still liking them in some cases. Whatever @El Gecko's reasons are for staying brushed, whether his arguments stand up in a court of law, doesn't matter.  If they make sense to him and he's happy, that's all that matters.

I do agree that total misinformation shouldn't be spread in an effort to discourage newcomers from trying new things. I'm sorry for sharing my opinion (which honestly means little, its just works for me personally) if it offends anyone. I'm not trying to start an argument or cause any hard feelings.

Hi Saito,

actually I didn´t read your statement, seems I missed it. I was just referring to El Gecko´s post. I´m for sure a big Vintage fan (that´s why I joined TC), and would never sell my old left over brushed motors, they are just pure time machines for me regarding feelings, design, looks overall. My intention was never to tell somebody here what to like. It´s TC, a hobby and everybody has different approaches to the models. I´m just trying to base my assumptions on good arguments and experiences I made during club level racing since 1997. I also had quite disappointing moments with the switch to Brushless in some race classes, but over the years I made my mind and the systems changed quite a lot, especially in the beginning. Probably that´s why Brushless is nowadays a synonyme for plenty of power, and those extreme "bashers" driving the Arrma and Traxxas kits.  That´s maybe a reason why many "Vintage" fans don´t want to look at this sector of RC, having the fear to destroy their precious Vintage kits like it can be seen on all those Youtube channels...

You don´t have to be sorry for sharing your opinion, you always have good themes going. It´s af forum for us all to bring our arguments, isn´t it?

Have a nice evening everyone, no matter what motors you prefer!;)

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57 minutes ago, ruebiracer said:

actually I didn´t read your statement, seems I missed it. I was just referring to El Gecko´s post.

Sorry, that wasn't directed purely at you. I shouldn't have deleted it either. I basically admitted that not all brushless systems were about uncontrollable speeds and in the very next post I was informed that all brushless systems were not about silly fast speeds. I suppose while I come down on the side of brushed (for my personal needs only, not trying to convince others on which direction to take), I conceded that brushless could provide sane power levels, which seemed ignored, so I deleted the post. Forums can be messy for debate at times and yesterday was a bad day, lol. 

I agree that Youtube videos and the like have created a stigma around brushless as an insanely overpowered way of driving an RC which is not true in all case. For me, I get a silvercan in every kit and it does the job. The way it sounds, reacts, even smells works for me. I'm not looking for anything better, even though better is certainly out there. If brushed works for me and @El Gecko personally, so be it, but that shouldn't dissuade any others from trying it, even vintage enthusiast (because brushless can work for them too.) .

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