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toyolien

Motors. Brushed over Brushless? Nostalgia or not?

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11 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Sorry, that wasn't directed purely at you. I shouldn't have deleted it either. I basically admitted that not all brushless systems were about uncontrollable speeds and in the very next post I was informed that all brushless systems were not about silly fast speeds. I suppose while I come down on the side of brushed (for my personal needs only, not trying to convince others on which direction to take), I conceded that brushless could provide sane power levels, which seemed ignored, so I deleted the post. Forums can be messy for debate at times and yesterday was a bad day, lol. 

I agree that Youtube videos and the like have created a stigma around brushless as an insanely overpowered way of driving an RC which is not true in all case. For me, I get a silvercan in every kit and it does the job. The way it sounds, reacts, even smells works for me. I'm not looking for anything better, even though better is certainly out there. If brushed works for me and @El Gecko personally, so be it, but that shouldn't dissuade any others from trying it, even vintage enthusiast (because brushless can work for them too.) .

I'm guessing it was aimed at me? I don't remember you saying that "not all brushless systems were about uncontrollable speeds" nor was my comment directly aimed at you. It was just a general statement. But as you've now deleted it I can't refer back to it.

The premise of my original question was not what people prefer themselves, or whether brushed motors "suit" a particular vehicle or age of vehicle. It was really to  see whether there were any advantages of using a brushed motor over a similarly powered brushless motor for certain applications. All of my Tamiya's are runners, and none of them have silly fast motors. I have 2 Wild Willies and a Super Hotshot that are brushed and a Nova Fox, Comical Avante, TT02S & a DT02 that have 13.5 or 15.5t brushless motors. I'm about to build another Wild Willy and toyed with the idea of running it brushless. However, I prefer the 'look' of a brushed motor, particularly in older cars. Hence this thread. So, please don't be offended by my reply. All opinions are welcome, and valued!

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20 minutes ago, toyolien said:

I'm guessing it was aimed at me? I don't remember you saying that "not all brushless systems were about uncontrollable speeds" nor was my comment directly aimed at you. It was just a general statement. But as you've now deleted it I can't refer back to it.

Well, it wasn't my intent to name names and create any bad blood but rather to explain why I (stupidly) pulled my post. My bad, and I took your post the wrong way. My sincere apologies. Honest. 

As far as your original question's intent, I've read crawlers sometimes still prefer brushed motors though I'm not knowledgeable enough to give further info.

Sorry again.

 

 

 

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Tried brushless got back to brushed for the reasons below

1.I like tinkering, i just find brushed more interesting.

2.Better looks, yes I'm a very superficial person😁 , but those alu endbell handwound trinity motors were gorgeous!(tamiya dynatech 01R is also very nice)

3. Simple and robust: can be submerges in water mud anything and keep going!

4.Low rpm control: a 5 slot brushed motor has incredible low speed resolution, still the gold standard in crawling. (have one in my crawler, also watch the top crawler world champ crawler setup)

5.As already mentioned less wires: yes i know but i dont like how the three wire AND control look in a vintage buggy.

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On 5/15/2021 at 9:43 PM, Nicadraus said:

Why would you even switch ESCs? Brushed ESCs now are dirt cheap. Switching them from time to time is simply a hassle and inconvenient in my opinion. Why not just put one ESC of the same kind on each of your kits if you feel that one model/certain ESC is best for your kit. That's pretty common sense. No offense intended here.

FYI: brushless ESC and motors can also be switched just like brushed ESCs in case you didn't know.

I'm not taking offense, I just felt like there was a lot of brushless evangelism going on here and I wanted to provide a counterpoint: that brushed motors are still just as good and fun as they used to be, and they have some perks that brushless doesn't (waterproof). I know it might be hard to believe, but I still use MSCs in some of my cars. Sometimes I get the itch to see how that car drives with an ESC, so I swap one in for a run or two. I don't want to have to switch motors and/or batteries every time I make that swap, and just the same, I don't want to have to switch ESCs and/or batteries every time I want to try a different motor. To be able to switch brushless ESC and motors you must first have multiples of each ;)

  

On 5/15/2021 at 9:43 PM, Nicadraus said:

There are program boxes/cards to just connect to a brushless ESC and tuning can be done there. Even a 10 year old kid can do it without problems. No need for a computer if you or any user didn't want to. But I personally like tuning my BL ESC in the computer.

The program box is just more gear (and has been recently said, more wires) to add to the mix. More complexity = more chance of a problem.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 9:43 PM, Nicadraus said:

For your usage... But not in general. I'm/we're not forcing you are anyone to go brushless if you don't want but once you try it, you'll definitely take your words back.

I have no means to personally offend you with my reply but your reasons above are just pointless. Stubbornness just because of "nostalgia" doesn't make your assumptions and experience accurate. It sounded that you're speaking for the general "nostalgia/nostalgic" RC people. I also have a part of the "nostalgic" in me as I started this hobby back in the mid 80s. The time when I was struggling to save up my allowance to be able to buy parts and upgrades until I got my first job and was able to afford the things I want. On and off in the hobby but I was always updated. I also adapt to newer technology and see the advantage(s) and disadvantage(s) of both. I don't close my eyes to other and newer things to try just because I'm a racer or not. That "I'm not a racer" statement of yours is such an invalid reason as well. Basher or racer, brushless systems can be very efficient to anyone who's willing to learn and try more about it and not by just judging on what they read or saw on the internet. Expanding your knowledge about many things can be fruitful too. There's no harm in trying.

Yes, for my usage, which is general usage. Brushed motors are still good for a wider variety of scenarios than you're giving them credit for. I'll never say never, but it's most likely that I will not take my words back because I have indeed done my research since I got back into the hobby, and I have decided that brushless is still not for me. Sorry to disappoint you.

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15 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

I'm not taking offense, I just felt like there was a lot of brushless evangelism going on here and I wanted to provide a counterpoint: that brushed motors are still just as good and fun as they used to be, and they have some perks that brushless doesn't (waterproof).

 

There are many, many waterproof brushless motors (and ESC). You definitely need to research before making another claim.

15 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

The program box is just more gear (and has been recently said, more wires) to add to the mix. More complexity = more chance of a problem.

The program box only needs to be connected when tuning and doesn't come with the ESC during operation and running. The only wire connected to it is a JST type servo wire/plug, which like I said, even a 10 year old can do and there's no problem with that like you assume.

15 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

Sorry to disappoint you.

Oh I'm not disappointed at all. I'm actually sorry for you because you limit yourself too much by not (or refuse) learning about brushless systems but ironically, make so many negative assumptions about it like you already know without the actual trial or experience. 

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10 minutes ago, Nicadraus said:

There are many, many waterproof brushless motors (and ESC).

The program box only needs to be connected when tuning and doesn't come with the ESC during operation and running. The only wire connected to it is a JST wire, which is like I said, even a 10 year old can do and there's no problem with that like you assume.

Oh I'm not disappointed at all. I'm actually sorry for you because you limit yourself too much by not (or refuse) learning about brushless systems but ironically, make so many negative assumptions about it like you already know without the actual trial or experience. 

I have nothing further to say to you if you continue to insult my intelligence.

And you yourself assume that everyone should want a Lamborghini. You know what? I'm perfectly happy roasting the tires off my Mustangs, thanks.

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2 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

I have nothing futher to say to you if you continue to insult my intelligence.

And you yourself assume that everyone should want a Lamborghini. You know what? I'm perfectly happy tearing the tires off my Mustangs, thanks.

I am not insulting your intelligence nor I assumed that everyone should want a Lamborghini. You gotta back read.

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I've been a fan of motors we use in RC since I had my first hobby grade car back in 1985.  Check out the AYK GZ1200 motor from..1979!!img_0351.jpg?w=570&h=428

 

My first "exotic" brushed motor was the Astro Turbo 05

 

Astro-Flight-Cobalt-05-Electric-Marine-Racing-_57.jpg

Both brushed and brushless motors have their own idiosyncrasies.  Brushed motors use more more mechanical options for tuning such as brush compound type, and shape, commutator finish and bearing choice.  Brushless motors are mostly controlled by software to customize to one's liking.  Either way, for me it's fun to tinker with.

The sad part for fans of brushed motors, is that parts and supplies are dwindling.  I changed the brass bushings to bearings in my Superstock RZ and BZ motors, and wanted to try some soft compound brushes to get a bit more performance out of them but it's hard to source any.  I'mean yeah.. I could just get a cheap brushless motor and get more performance, but I like this process.

Conversely, I chose specific brushless motors for my Kyosho Tomahawk and Turbo Optima.  I love the pinpoint control the sensored motors give and proportional breaking makes it feel like I can skate each car along any line I choose.  

 

Either way, you can't really go wrong.  Brushed or brushless.. you can explore options to maximize what you want out of them and enjoy.

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5 hours ago, El Gecko said:

. I know it might be hard to believe, but I still use MSCs in some of my cars.

Woah now - there's no need for that!!!!! :P

I think it's just great that there is still the choice of having brushed. It adds variety and a different experience for fellow hobbiests who may not have grown up with them when they were the only option.

For me, like a lot of others, I think there is a case for both. I've got a 5.5T brushless in my Durga because I wanted that to be totally nuts (which it is) but I've got a ActoPink in my Super Astute because that's what I think should be in it because I love things to be period correct. I'd also agree with the comment that a Lipo can really wake up a brushed motor. When I built my "spares" King Cab chassis I stuck a Team Powers (I think?) brushed motor in it that I'd got for my M-chassis when I was hoping to race it. Stuck my 2S lipo in it and it pulled the tyres off the rims! Genuinely surprised at how rapid it was!

And let's not forget there is always the venerable Conrad 240826 that breaks all brushed motor rules. And laws of physics. 

Sorry - couldn't help myself :) 

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11 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

I am not insulting your intelligence nor I assumed that everyone should want a Lamborghini. You gotta back read.

By saying "it's so easy a 10 year old can do it" multiple times in multiple posts, yes you are insulting now.

And you also gotta back read. I HAVE tried brushless, in my cousin's Slash, the equivalent of renting a Lambo for a track day. I still don't like it. It's not for me. Kind of like how some people like turbos and some people like all-motor V8s. There is a different "feel" and no one can tell you which one you "like" better. There is no logic when it's simply a difference in feel.

Also, re: the program box... freaking DUH. Of course you don't leave it hooked up while you drive. My point was, the program box itself is a (simple) computer, and it's yet ANOTHER piece of equipment that you have to keep track of, ferry around in your pit box, etc. More complexity. More points of potential failure. Even the brushless motor itself, due to the tiny, sensitive electronics inside, is more complex than a simple brushed motor. The engineering principle "K.I.S.S." apparently doesn't seem to apply with brushless motors (and indeed, many electronic devices these days).

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5 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

And let's not forget there is always the venerable Conrad 240826 that breaks all brushed motor rules. And laws of physics. 

Sorry - couldn't help myself :) 

Oh you said the magic words... now this thread will surely get shut down :lol:

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1 hour ago, El Gecko said:

By saying "it's so easy a 10 year old can do it" multiple times in multiple posts, yes you are insulting now.

I had no means to insult. If you didn't get the point then that is your problem. My point was, it's so easy to do it that even a 10 year old kid can which you keep insisting that it was complex/hard to use and that will create problems.

Now if you get insulted, that is because you didn't comprehend that very well. 

The last statement wasn't (again) an insult but a fact.

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14 hours ago, cobalt said:

Tried brushless got back to brushed for the reasons below

1.I like tinkering, i just find brushed more interesting.

2.Better looks, yes I'm a very superficial person😁 , but those alu endbell handwound trinity motors were gorgeous!(tamiya dynatech 01R is also very nice)

3. Simple and robust: can be submerges in water mud anything and keep going!

4.Low rpm control: a 5 slot brushed motor has incredible low speed resolution, still the gold standard in crawling. (have one in my crawler, also watch the top crawler world champ crawler setup)

5.As already mentioned less wires: yes i know but i dont like how the three wire AND control look in a vintage buggy.

I know, I shouldn´t write another post in this very political discussion, but::lol:

Agree on point 2: Most Brushless motors don´t look very exciting, such as the old Brushed ones. Probably that´s also why I put MCI stickers on some of mine representing famous brushed motors...:lol:

point 3: depends on motors, just like on Brushless systems. A silvercan will have no problem, as probably most of the other brushed ones with relatively hard brushes. But I had a glorious winter bash with my Top Force Evo back in the late 90`s, and after 2 batteries of total fun my motor didn´t move anymore. So with all the heat and wet conditions, it consumed my brushes completely. :ph34r: (Was a Modified motor, open end bell design)

point 4: Totally agree on the 5-slot (brushed) motors. But be aware, that 90% of the brushed motors are 3 slot motors to create higher RPM. So you can get 5 slot silvercans (my Dad used it often in his RC ships for that reason), but if you put such one in Grasshopper everyone would be highly disappointed by the topspeed... The low rpm control and cogging is also what made the non sensored systems switch from 2 pole to 4 pole...

point 5: Nothing to add, if Vintage looks is a must, there´s no alternative of course...:)

But now I´m out, have fun everyone!

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Nicadraus said:

I had no means to insult. If you didn't get the point then that is your problem. My point was, it's so easy to do it that even a 10 year old kid can which you keep insisting that it was complex/hard to use and that will create problems.

Now if you get insulted, that is because you didn't comprehend that very well. 

The last statement wasn't (again) an insult but a fact.

You are not stating facts. You are stating your opinions.

You are also STILL insulting with backhanded comments, even now, insinuating that I do not understand how this all works.

You have been extremely condescending and passive aggressive (to multiple people in this thread) and you can't seem to fathom that other people have their own opinions and preferences (even if they're "wrong" in your eyes).

And just out of spite, just because I know it ticks you off, I'm going to commit to ONLY running brushed motors FOREVER. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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I love that we are passionate about our hobby, but I did not realize brushed vs brushless was as controversial as MT vs AT in 1:1 scale cars.   :lol:

I own and run both motor types and MT/AT sports cars so keeping a neutral ground.  In my case I don't want to miss out.  

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49 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

You are not stating facts. You are stating your opinions.

 

Those were facts based on my experiences with both brushed and brushless systems and not assumptions like yours.

49 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

You are also STILL insulting with backhanded comments, even now, insinuating that I do not understand how this all works.

Like I said, I have no means to insult you or anyone here. Now if you're too affected by it, peel off the onion skin. You're making yourself too pity.

49 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

You have been extremely condescending and passive aggressive (to multiple people in this thread) and you can't seem to fathom that other people have their own opinions and preferences (even if they're "wrong" in your eyes).

I don't remember nor read any aggressiveness coming from my side in my past posts addressing to anyone. In fact it is you who's become so defensive (and aggressive). And don't say that I can't fathom about other people's opinion and preferences. I support what people want as long as they're happy. Don't put words into my mouth just because you have a poor comprehension (not an insult but obviously a fact). I already mentioned that I like both brushed and brushless and don't force anyone here to just like either. My point is/was simple. You kept insisting the brushless is full of negativity, full of problems, because you're not a racer so why should you use it, etc, etc, etc. You keep on yakking without even doing some research You're just basing your opinion not from actual experience but by hearsay. Yeah you probably tried your cousin's Slash (or maybe not). But were you the one who installed, it, wired it, programmed it? Otherwise, I seriously doubt that. 

Stop including other people in our debate here like asking for sympathy to side with you and trying to manipulate that I'm being aggressive to anyone. Can't fool me boy.

Lastly, don't throw your sour feelings on to me. You sour grape too much. 

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1 hour ago, El Gecko said:

I'm going to commit to ONLY running brushed motors FOREVER. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

😁😁😁😁😁

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On one of the other boards I hang out on, conversations like this get "marked" like this:

 

David Hasselhoff Speedo GIF - DavidHasselhoff Speedo Loop GIFs

 

Enjoy!

Terry

 

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1 hour ago, Fabia130vRS said:

I am not sure but brushed motors can work in water while brushless cant?

I think some people swear by breaking in new silver cans in a jar of water. 
I know a lot of sensorless motors are waterproof, I don’t know about sensored systems though . 

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2 hours ago, Fabia130vRS said:

I am not sure but brushed motors can work in water while brushless cant?

Sorry for my smilie Fabia, but couldn´t help me, because this discussion will not stop today I guess!;) 

By itself, sensorless systems can do very well under water. Sensored systems can be brought to, if the sensorboard is protected/insulated if not done by the factory. I´ve done many M-chassis races with a sensorless Carson (Dragster 3) combo now, which is spec. by regulation (besides a brushed Carson Cup machine for beginners), and it never let me down, although we really dumped the cars in heavy rain.

Hope that info maybe helps you,

kind regards,

Matthias

 

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1 hour ago, Frog Jumper said:

On one of the other boards I hang out on, conversations like this get "marked" like this:

That is freaking me out man! I may never look at Knight Rider the same way again! :blink:

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On 5/17/2021 at 3:20 AM, El Gecko said:

The program box is just more gear (and has been recently said, more wires) to add to the mix. More complexity = more chance of a problem

Not really wanting to get in the middle of your, decision, and getting hit in the back of the head with a handbag, but , it's usually the upper end esc's that solely use a programmer. The quickly becoming goto brushless esc, Hobbywings 10BL120 , uses the on/off button to set it up. (Although granted, can be a bit of a faff if you're altering settings alot, where a programmer is easier 🙄).

As I've said before, nothing against brushed, but everything "progresses", even the likes of battery drills are mostly going brushless (pretty similar with lithium batteries, you'll find most modern tech uses these cells, but that's another  a̶r̶g̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ decision....) 

 

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