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matisse

DT02/03 hub options

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Interesting progress.

TRF201 C-Hubs turned up today, in both stock 30 and the hop up 25 deg flavours.

E95CB25E-EBD7-4C09-8B2B-932B1C59F698.md.
 

once you line them up side by side it’s clear that either of the TRF201 hubs will add a lot of caster, something that should help the DT02 hugely.

E87CD403-57AD-4C95-B943-D57FA33D9F0C.md.
 

Several things are apparent though beyond the higher quality material.

1) The hinge pin position is going to make the axle sit a lot lower. 
 

80932661-2645-4B3E-AF80-AD7D1F514139.md.
 

2) the actual C is huge, way bigger than the stock hubs, so you’ll need a lot of spacers to run the stock uprights.

6AC10A76-CB35-433A-BB3D-E41D62CF1F6A.md.
 

3) At the base the TRF201 hub is 0.5-1mm too wide to fit in the stock arm according to my micrometer.

plan is to wait for the F103GT uprights to turn up, I have a hunch that they will fit as it’s clear they are larger than the stock uprights from the image on a previous post. If they do then it’s out with the dremel to make these hubs fit.  If they don’t the it back to the drawing board.

 

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18 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@matisseHow about running the stock C Hub with spacers underneath to mitigate the diffetent height? 

@ThunderDragonCy Stock Hub or upright?

you could happily use the stock upright with spacers in the TRF hub imo

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3 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Sorry, I meant stock upright in the 201 c hub.

Oh yeah that’s def possible, I didn’t measure but I reckon 3-4mm of spacer at least

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F103GT uprights arrived along with M01 axles and 850 bearings.

72CFEA70-D81C-4B2D-AF89-46270C47B260.md.

TLDR: this works with LOTS of modifications. Its not a plug and play switch like the rear arms/hubs. skip to the end now if you wanna see pics.

If you're still here, buckle up as this is a long one........

So the C hub is 15.2mm wide, but the Upright is 15.8mm, so some dremel work is required from the off.

966C7CB9-135B-42C8-A1F4-D9EA30A5D2EE.md.C5F2550F-975D-4C43-96EA-FB546D95F18B.md.`T

You pretty much have to file off the first step you can see here on both sides. The plastic is similar to the DF01, glass reinforced perhaps, better than the super flexy stock parts.

The arms will need reaming out for a  3mm thread ball stud, or a 2mm one fits perfectly.

AAD3AB72-F6F3-4F16-8282-14749248D608.md.90B3C377-AC50-45E9-9108-24AF96EDE453.md.

All then hinge pin holes will need drilling out to 3mm, and then if you're planning on using the 3x22mm set , you'll need to file the top of the c hub down so it can fit. you can see in the first image below how the pin doesn't extend through far enough to attach the second e-clip.

7EDDEDFA-260E-4E10-AF6C-E2883458040E.md.E4722DE8-FD2F-48A4-B51C-39E0BD718C9B.md.

all assembled we hit another problem, the upright fouls on the hub stopping if reaching a sufficient steering angle.

B32D3D66-09C8-4588-96E1-9D6EF1B8568C.md.16D13037-3739-47B3-81F4-B2FE9C269F02.md.

The solution here is more scalpel/dremel work to cut away at the lower section of the upright. The throw still isnt great as we'll see later, but it's better.

FBB0639C-C99F-410B-985C-00A0CE6B651B.md.7BC8B371-AC0A-4E70-89C3-12491FF7622A.md.

We'll see the difference later, but the max throw is significantly smaller than the stock hub/upright combo.

2CFA417F-646C-4906-B940-622553217570.md.

To fit the TRF201 hub in the DT02/3 arm, you'll need to dremel about 1.5mm off. it's very much a fit to the arm scenario, taking off bits at a time to make it fit.

38279403-D628-4CD3-AB37-71342097DEBE.md.076DF4CE-EE72-42FB-B052-10C84C7BF890.md.

The sections you file off are curved, this helps the hubs pivot with the extra caster the hubs provide. On the TRF201 there is a washer between these and the arms, here this isn't an option, so you'll need to make a few small adjustments so they can move smoothly. You can see below how it can hit the inside of the arm. 

D4DFF40E-DED1-4072-8B66-5324ED212874.md.38B69510-8D00-479B-8C80-7EE20D75D019.md.

All done it sits well with no issue on the wheel clearance.

9E033513-71D4-42A0-A3F1-37BD673D09B5.md.F8A2B93E-FBB4-4B63-A9A3-8A02DE5E1DF7.md.

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So the thinking behind the fronts was to enable more setup options  and they certainly do that, even caster if you switch between the 25/30 deg hubs.

But, its a lot of work, so not for everyone, and there are issues with the turning circle.

The side by sides show the TRF hubs on the Left, and the stock hubs on the Right.  There is a clear difference in max steering angle.

CBB4CA31-0A4F-4D7F-943E-26F28588CDE4.md.B95F1E7C-A4E1-41A3-9B5D-4E42ADCE31C2.md.

and turning Left...

A195117F-B15D-4D16-B91D-164F43632255.md.A68FB2CD-18B3-4289-BBAE-22564B87A5A6.md.

The question is, is it a major issue?

 

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@ThunderDragonCy Fitted the stock uprights to the TRF201 C hub, 2mm spacer above and below and it's golden. 

5741D51A-8243-47B7-AD7C-CB16BB9B55BE.md.

7B000DD7-ABAD-4A21-A159-F1D9D4F5607B.md.

You get a silly amount of steering throw as well....

F80A2F85-DFB9-4C83-BCF5-FF2D077A57A6.md.

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This turned up today and it is perfect, fitting it later. 
 

3A9641E5-440F-4165-AE2F-C28A62042161.md.

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The Cougar KR hex conversion uprights are a dream. Drill out one hole to 3mm for the hinge pin add a 1mm spacer above and below and it’s perfect.

EF43BF3D-8C88-49C8-B77F-1C14445011AF.md.
 

and Fitted with the TRF Hubs.


1C7C8699-B326-492C-B0D8-259784970AE3.md.

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Few notes from fitting the truck wheels.

They are very deep so there is an issue with the inside edge fouling on the ball cup. To help with this I dropped the upright to the bottom of the c-hub and trimmed a bevel on the rim edge. 


589C8341-FAEC-432B-819C-72B0EA7F0033.md.

0CD02FC6-4A01-48B3-B7A0-8FF900D79CCB.md.


don’t think this will be an issue with buggy wheels, and of course it add an extra layer of tuning by raising /lowering the front ride height.

The axles are also very short, so they are def more suited to buggy wheels, but the serrated wheel nuts seem secure.

 

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On 6/19/2021 at 11:16 AM, matisse said:

F103GT uprights arrived along with M01 axles and 850 bearings.

72CFEA70-D81C-4B2D-AF89-46270C47B260.md.

TLDR: this works with LOTS of modifications. Its not a plug and play switch like the rear arms/hubs. skip to the end now if you wanna see pics.

AAD3AB72-F6F3-4F16-8282-14749248D608.md.90B3C377-AC50-45E9-9108-24AF96EDE453.md.

 

 

So I didn't realize this, but this is exclusive to the F103GT.  You said it in the post obviously, but to be clear, every other F103/F104 uses a different, "standard" upright.  I (separately) was looking for a replacement to the straight arm upright on the DT-01/02/03, and bought a set of regular F103 uprights. Rather, the fiber reinforced uprights, part number 54154.

9949f1486630846a3ee5c1609407bf58.jpg.bb02598d66534d6dbf70237532674c50.jpg

 

The F104W GP Edition also uses a unique upright, with a lot of adjust-ability.

F104WGP_Upright.png.52836c319e960e87a8b86264333ac00d.png

 

It offers this Nugget of info for deciding on either being aligned to the kingpin, or trailing the kingpin:

F104WGP_Tuning_Upright.png.3063aafb12d4e5c1be1843a5621c0fc4.png

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I'm putting this in as a post here instead of creating another thread about a hex conversion for DT-02/3.  I bought Kyosho part # EZ006, a combo carrier arm & upright hex set for the Sandmaster, Nexxt & Axxe buggies.  My set was only $15 from ebay, vs $30+ for the Schumacher pieces, which also need a carrier that fits them.  I figured I would try them out. :)
Overall I am happy with the parts, although there are several issues to be aware of.

1. The ball ends are 6mm.  Everything on a DT-02/3 is 5mm, so you have to either swap in some 5mm ball connectors or get some 6mm adjusters.
2. Because the top arm connection is a ball, a turnbuckle setup is required for the top suspension arm.  It will also have to be adjusted shorter than stock.  To make the arms parallel for a DT, I used the upper hole.

3. The steering arm is long, which means less turn versus the stock arm.  I drilled new holes for the steering ball conectors closer in.
4. I had to shave off ~1mm off the carrier to get it to fit into the suspension arm.  Not too bad.  Also, the uprights are 15.8mm, if you already have a carrier that would fit them.  The TRF201 carriers are 15.5mm, so with some trimming it should work fine.

IMG_1454cropResize.jpg.93c94b1f1b9d0e26bbbf4031c523733d.jpgIMG_1455cropResize.jpg.da4008c7e7819ab36089fd2a4942419b.jpg

IMG_1459cropResize.jpg.c24fa1c1b6980e551f78d10bafa4256f.jpgIMG_1458cropResize.jpg.a1241c5f00c750b176e198b47771a05b.jpg

5. The axle had a LOT of free play to slide in & out!  I didn't initially have any 6mm shims, so I grabbed some leftover lexan and cut some crude ones.  My lexan was ~0.6mm thick.  One shim wasn't enough, two was too many.  After I got some actual 6mm shims my total shim pack was 0.9mm one side, 1.0mm on the other.

IMG_1456cropResize.jpg.b71f0b1c44a0ee78d5ffd5cd00d5e68f.jpgIMG_1457cropResize.jpg.10982ce1fb9c43b1291a5c6542417cfc.jpg

6. speaking of slop, the kingpin screw is M3 thread, which means a 3mm hole.  The *shaft* of the screw is only 2.6mm, meaning a lot of free play there too!  I tried to order a tamiya suspension shaft with e-clips to replace it, but the size turned out wrong (my "did I receive the wrong shafts" thread in the builds section.)  It turns out associated sells some 45mm long m3 screws with 25mm of clean shaft, which fit perfect!  There isn't a standard of how much thread to shaft a given screw should have, so I was lucky these were just right.

IMG_1552cropResize.jpg.c3d52594b36e3481e935c6fd8de44913.jpg

Eventually I was able to get a respectable setup.  The shorter arm on top is going to pull the tire/wheel in a bit more at full suspension compression, which means worse bump steer for stock steering.  I've fixed the bumpsteer on my DT-02, and it is a basher, so not a concern.  There is some modification to get these to fit, and some modification to fix some big slop in the steering. So long as you are aware of the fixes needed, they can be useful.

IMG_1553cropResize.jpg.6ffaec9290b19574e0cb6a4b700d46b9.jpg

IMG_1557cropResize.thumb.jpg.e5059ea9ad0e8cd16b5ca81124a44574.jpg

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Oops. I've pretty much duplicated this thread with a nee one. I now realise I had seen it before. I wonder if they can be combined somehow? My new thread is here:

It aims not to be DT-02/3 specific, rather to help for any chassis with similar bearing front wheels. But that's not a major difference. 

It does add some new options.

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On 6/4/2022 at 2:39 AM, SlideWRX said:

I'm putting this in as a post here instead of creating another thread about a hex conversion for DT-02/3.  I bought Kyosho part # EZ006, a combo carrier arm & upright hex set for the Sandmaster, Nexxt & Axxe buggies.  My set was only $15 from ebay, vs $30+ for the Schumacher pieces, which also need a carrier that fits them.  I figured I would try them out. :)
Overall I am happy with the parts, although there are several issues to be aware of.

1. The ball ends are 6mm.  Everything on a DT-02/3 is 5mm, so you have to either swap in some 5mm ball connectors or get some 6mm adjusters.
2. Because the top arm connection is a ball, a turnbuckle setup is required for the top suspension arm.  It will also have to be adjusted shorter than stock.  To make the arms parallel for a DT, I used the upper hole.

3. The steering arm is long, which means less turn versus the stock arm.  I drilled new holes for the steering ball conectors closer in.
4. I had to shave off ~1mm off the carrier to get it to fit into the suspension arm.  Not too bad.  Also, the uprights are 15.8mm, if you already have a carrier that would fit them.  The TRF201 carriers are 15.5mm, so with some trimming it should work fine.

IMG_1454cropResize.jpg.93c94b1f1b9d0e26bbbf4031c523733d.jpgIMG_1455cropResize.jpg.da4008c7e7819ab36089fd2a4942419b.jpg

IMG_1459cropResize.jpg.c24fa1c1b6980e551f78d10bafa4256f.jpgIMG_1458cropResize.jpg.a1241c5f00c750b176e198b47771a05b.jpg

5. The axle had a LOT of free play to slide in & out!  I didn't initially have any 6mm shims, so I grabbed some leftover lexan and cut some crude ones.  My lexan was ~0.6mm thick.  One shim wasn't enough, two was too many.  After I got some actual 6mm shims my total shim pack was 0.9mm one side, 1.0mm on the other.

IMG_1456cropResize.jpg.b71f0b1c44a0ee78d5ffd5cd00d5e68f.jpgIMG_1457cropResize.jpg.10982ce1fb9c43b1291a5c6542417cfc.jpg

6. speaking of slop, the kingpin screw is M3 thread, which means a 3mm hole.  The *shaft* of the screw is only 2.6mm, meaning a lot of free play there too!  I tried to order a tamiya suspension shaft with e-clips to replace it, but the size turned out wrong (my "did I receive the wrong shafts" thread in the builds section.)  It turns out associated sells some 45mm long m3 screws with 25mm of clean shaft, which fit perfect!  There isn't a standard of how much thread to shaft a given screw should have, so I was lucky these were just right.

IMG_1552cropResize.jpg.c3d52594b36e3481e935c6fd8de44913.jpg

Eventually I was able to get a respectable setup.  The shorter arm on top is going to pull the tire/wheel in a bit more at full suspension compression, which means worse bump steer for stock steering.  I've fixed the bumpsteer on my DT-02, and it is a basher, so not a concern.  There is some modification to get these to fit, and some modification to fix some big slop in the steering. So long as you are aware of the fixes needed, they can be useful.

IMG_1553cropResize.jpg.6ffaec9290b19574e0cb6a4b700d46b9.jpg

IMG_1557cropResize.thumb.jpg.e5059ea9ad0e8cd16b5ca81124a44574.jpg

Hey @SlideWRX you mention the length of the steering arm. If you've still got these handy could you give us some rough dimensions on that? 

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~28mm from kingpin to steering ball link.  ~23mm to the hole I drilled.  Stock DT-03 arm is around 18mm.  Let me know what else you want. :)

spacer.png

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