TD-4 Super Avante. New Off Road Buggy from Tamiya?

[matisse 1581]

15 minutes ago, rich_f said:

Can someone please explain why the presence of hex socket-headed screws is such a desirable aspect? I've seen it mentioned multiple times now about this car. 

I get that hex-socket screws are generally less likely to cam out and strip the heads, but at the torque necessary to drive them into plastic, surely this advantage is negated? I mean, I've never stripped the head of a JIS headed screw in an rc car as the torque required to screw it into plastic isn't enough to cause cam-out. 

So is it just the way they look? (they do look better in my opinion)

Mostly as I would venture that few people actually use JIS screwdrivers to build, and instead use the Phillips/Posidrive that they have in their tool box. I know i certainly did, so. i figure if i'm gonna buy a new tool to build a kit with, i may was well get a good hex driver instead of JIS drivers that I'll use for one thing only

[BuggyGuy 1106]

19 minutes ago, rich_f said:

Can someone please explain why the presence of hex socket-headed screws is such a desirable aspect? I've seen it mentioned multiple times now about this car. 

... 

It's the first hopup I buy for any Tamiya, I'm really not a fan of self tappers and prefer M3 hardware. I've never had a problem using M3 machine screws with the kits I've had.

[Cynan 520]

Yeah I’ve only recently been made aware that JIS existed and then had to wait ages for stock to get a set. Always used PH and PZ bits.

Hex or Torq headed screws are my preference. Especially if you’re having to take them in/out all the time to replace a battery.

They’re just better. So why not use them - given a similar price point. Use them all the time now for everything, not just in RC.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

At that price i am still interested, but not until they release some other bodies.

[taffer 948]

Had no issues with JIS screws, I'm glad tamiya stick with them, don't like other types Inc hex

[Cynan 520]

I’d be surprised if Tamiya released any kit with JIS now - except for ReRe’s.

[Badcrumble 4201]

3 hours ago, BuggyGuy said:

Looks like battery doors to me - as spotted by a few others:

 

And another view of the underside

[rich_f 233]

26 minutes ago, BuggyGuy said:

It's the first hopup I buy for any Tamiya, I'm really not a fan of self tappers and prefer M3 hardware. I've never had a problem using M3 machine screws with the kits I've had.

I was talking about the head design (which is the aspect that has been highlighted about the screws in this car) rather than the thread form. I personally wouldn't change to a machine threaded screw for a hole designed for a self-tapping screw of the same nominal outer diameter, but that's another discussion for another time.

I didn't consider that these hex-headed screws might also be machine-threaded - maybe the fibre-reinforced plastic used in this model is more suited to machine threads than the plastics used in models utilising self-tapping screws, and has the holes drilled to the correct diameter to accept them. 

[Cynan 520]

The battery doors are in the wrong position, as the battery sits lengthwise and not across. Perhaps the battery was originally designed with the doors and what you see not a final body design where these “doors” are not required anymore.

[BuggyGuy 1106]

38 minutes ago, Cynan said:

The battery doors are in the wrong position, as the battery sits lengthwise and not across. Perhaps the battery was originally designed with the doors and what you see not a final body design where these “doors” are not required anymore.

Maybe the battery can go the other way as well? Doesn't look like there would be anything else in the way of that (under the bridge the driver perches in front of and the ESC is on top of) maybe... 

Probably less that optimal from a weight distribution perspective though. 

[Cynan 520]

Hop Ups shown on the TamiyaBlog:

22028 TD4 Assembly Universal Shafts ( 2) $29
22029 TD4 Differential Nut and Screw Set $9.50
22030 TD4 Aluminum Servo Stays $17
22031 TD4 Slipper Clutch Set $40
47464 TD4 Titanium Screw Set $59
51674 TD4 C-Parts (Uprights) (2) $8.75
51675 TD4 D-Parts (Suspension Arms) (2) $11

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cynan
Updated with prices from TamiyaUSA

[Juggular 4964]

10 hours ago, rich_f said:

Can someone please explain why the presence of hex socket-headed screws is such a desirable aspect? I've seen it mentioned multiple times now about this car. 

I get that hex-socket screws are generally less likely to cam out and strip the heads, but at the torque necessary to drive them into plastic, surely this advantage is negated? I mean, I've never stripped the head of a JIS headed screw in an rc car as the torque required to screw it into plastic isn't enough to cause cam-out. 

So is it just the way they look? (they do look better in my opinion)

I think it's mostly the look.  And it snags less, if it's on the bottom.  

The way I see it, the seesaw is shorter on hexes (I'm talking about leverage).  

Of course, if you are using old Philips driver on JIS screw, hex is better.  But as you said, if you use JIS, I don't think hex is superior.  We've all stripped cheap L wrenches once or twice before, for things like grub screws. The reason why they strip easily is because the leveraging edges are so small compared to the core. 

It's a personal choice, some people love them, while some people like me are not terribly excited about the hexes.  

 

 

[Wooders28 4722]

8 hours ago, rich_f said:

Can someone please explain why the presence of hex socket-headed screws is such a desirable aspect?

When you have a set of hex drivers, they're absolutely brilliant,  although with a standard allen key, less so.

On the bottom of indoor race cars, as they have a less of a chance getting damaged and of having any sharp edges, so less chance of ripping the carpet.

I have in my head, they're a higher tensile strength? Standard screws 8.8, hex 10.9? 

 

 

[Wooders28 4722]

On 6/28/2021 at 5:05 PM, Robert5000 said:

I know I’ll be getting one, and I’ll probably want the slipper as well. So for now I’m still quite positive, intrigued and a bit baffled by this release.

Slipper and driveshafts probably, and yeah, Tamiya managed hit a myriad of emotions, none of them are boredom!! 🙄🤣

[Wooders28 4722]

6 hours ago, BuggyGuy said:

Maybe the battery can go the other way as well? Doesn't look like there would be anything else in the way of that (under the bridge the driver perches in front of and the ESC is on top of) maybe..

Imagine, if that's to fit a shorty.....🤯

[Robert5000 928]

2 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Slipper and driveshafts probably, and yeah, Tamiya managed hit a myriad of emotions, none of them are boredom!! 🙄🤣

Spot on!  And after watching the promo video an unhealthy amount of times and reading on here and facebook about how there are numerous things that should be wrong with this kit I can't help but feel that it's just so right. Of course you have to unbuild it in order to get the battery out, or maybe there's some battery doors that they'll tell us about in an afterthought in two months time, it'll probably cost an arm and a leg or just your arm and then you'll have to throw in the leg to get the hopups. And then they'll release the R version in six months time.  

Still, I want this. If for nothing else to find out just how quirky and possibly quite not so bad it is. And if England can beat Germany in the euro championship then surely Tamiya can release this with an unpainted body. 

[Saito2 6686]

1 hour ago, Juggular said:

It's personal choice, some people love them, while some people like me are not terribly excited about the hexes.  

 

I'm in the same boat. After decades of it, I'm familiar and happy with Tamiya hardware. Switching to hexes for other brands is one thing that actually takes me out of the build experience. I have a poor time judging the torque I'm applying with hexes and often wind up jamming the tool in them by going just a little too tight. I'm sure hexes are better and I'm just being stubborn and dumb but its just my personal preference.

[rich_f 233]

34 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

I have in my head, they're a higher tensile strength? Standard screws 8.8, hex 10.9? 

You can get many strength grades of [external] hex-head bolts (including the lower 5.6 grade), so I'd be very surprised if all hex socket head 3mm screws were high-grade. (noting that cheap ikea hardware, which is almost certainly not any particularly high grade, is also hex-socket headed...)

5 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I'm sure hexes are better and I'm just being stubborn and dumb

Hex heads certainly are better in terms of how much torque you can successfully apply - you don't get JIS- or Philips-headed bolts holding an engine's cylinder head down, for example. On an rc car pretty much any head type will do as the torques required are much lower.

I do get that they are less easy to damage with clumsy use of the wrong screwdriver or by heavy-handedness, so are less likely to be a problem to carpet tracks, but I feel like this is a user-generated problem and not inherent to the head type. 

So let's all agree that any head type is better than slotted screws and get back on topic!

Regarding those 'doors', they do indeed look like a transverse battery option. Maybe it will be part of a quick-release battery holder they are bound to release as a hop up... We might find out when the manual is released.

[Raman36 1655]

Back to price. MSRP $449, MAP should be $315. With a tower coupon $260ish. That’s not bad.

I was looking at the new batch if Egress priced at $822!!! Yikes. With tower coupons you’re still looking at $500. Was the list price the same back in 2013?

[Saito2 6686]

1 hour ago, rich_f said:

Hex heads certainly are better in terms of how much torque you can successfully apply - you don't get JIS- or Philips-headed bolts holding an engine's cylinder head down, for example. On an rc car pretty much any head type will do as the torques required are much lower.

As an auto mechanic previously,  I understand that. Hmmm. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a torque specs for all Tamiya fasteners like a car engine? Little mini torque wrenches? Then I'd support the move to all hex hardware, lol. Hey, I torque M3 bolts at my current job regularly to 25 in/lbs.

1 hour ago, Raman36 said:

Back to price. MSRP $449, MAP should be $315. With a tower coupon $260ish. That’s not bad.

That isn't bad at all. Curiosity might get the better of me at that price and I might go for it! (Super Champ reference anyone?)

[Juggular 4964]

21 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Little mini torque wrenches?

Having stripped a couple of chassis by over-torqueing, I think that's a fantastic idea. 

The manual would be filled with torque settings, so that goes against Tamiya's KISS principle. But many of us are old RC guys who's got nothing better to do. So maybe we could just download a separate instruction.  

 

[Wooders28 4722]

39 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Wouldn't it be cool if there was a torque specs for all Tamiya fasteners like a car engine? Little mini torque wrenches?

Most guys at the track use the small adjustable torque, battery Makita drivers with allen bits. I'm guessing only 2 ugga duggas though...

[Cynan 520]

Just be gentle and turn until the screw stops.. there’s no reason to keep going until the driver cams out or you strip the head. That said if you really wanted to you can already buy torque drivers and you could set it really low but it’s really unnecessary for RC.

[toyolien 4678]

10 minutes ago, Cynan said:

Just be gentle and turn until the screw stops.. there’s no reason to keep going until the driver cams out or you strip the head. That said if you really wanted to you can already buy torque drivers and you could set it really low but it’s really unnecessary for RC.

I agree. Especially if you've built a few kits. You should be able to feel how tight screws should go I guess.

[Juggular 4964]

2 hours ago, toyolien said:

I agree. Especially if you've built a few kits. You should be able to feel how tight screws should go I guess.

My friend, you underestimate my stupidity.  

Having built dozens, you'd think I know how to torque it down safely.  I keep reminding myself, "it's like seeping tea, you don't want to go all overboard." But does my stupidity listen to me? By definition, the Neanderthal part of my brain is too dumb to listen to the sane part of my brain.  So my hand goes like "woogah!" and I hear "crack!"  Over dinner, I would tell my wife what happened to and she tells me "It's okay baby, I always knew you were stupid..."  

That's why I could use @Saito2's fool-proof idea.