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TD-4 Super Avante. New Off Road Buggy from Tamiya?

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My reason for not being overwhelmed with joy for this new chassis, and I don't need/expect anyone to buy into this, is that they seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel rather than building on prior success. Why not double down on the DB/DF chassis and just continually evolve/tweak them? This TD04 is a vastly inferior chassis to either of those based on videos alone, yet so expensive. Why?

To me, it seems like they've created a new model for the sake of a new model and then wasted the 'Avante' moniker on it. Other than creating a platform for a bunch of new, overpriced TRF Hop-Ups, I just don't get the point. And now (since 2017) they've told us TRF is being repurposed for "entry to midrange" rather than competition and pro parts, we can assume they'll be mediocre to middling as well, they certainly wont be competition derived which was the core value of TRF parts in the past (now it's just an expensive brand).

Unless, as above, it's been made to appeal to a niche Japanese market, die-hard Tamiya fatals (myself probably included), or pure suckers I'm not sure what it's actually for. 

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10 hours ago, berman said:

I don't like the body (it looks bloated around the mid section). made worse by colour/stupid windows.

I don't like the wheels, particularly the colour.

I agree with the battery removal, but it's not the end of the world.

The only similarities I see with the Avante moniker, is a high cost and colour. This doesn't look 'over engineered' like the Avante was for its time.

I laughed when Tamiya bought out the Holiday Fugly 2010, people still bought it.. 🤷‍♂️

I'm not particularly big on buggies.

The chassis looks good, and it is something new from Tamiya. A new model, strong materials, performance orientated. And not another base model/rerelease/TT01/2.

I think a 3rd party or Tamiya will make a stand up shock tower for it.

Tamiya will bring another model out on this chassis to get more mileage... Hopefully a more desirable/less controversial one.

Will I buy a Super Avante? Still a 'heck no' 😂

It's only a matter of time before they ditch the whole front end on this chassis and revert back to a standard damper set up. Which, ironically, will make the Super Avante highly collectable in the future.

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Tamiya will have done their market research on this: When was the last time anyone ran a Top Force or DF-03 with a stock silver can in it? First thing anyone does is buy, at the least, a sport tuned or a brushless setup. A large proportion of people don't like the Tamiya esc's so swap them out. But then if they did put one in and try to accommodate everyone it would need to be a brushed/brushless one capable of everything (and then berated for being too complicated) and cost too much. This way they keep the purchase cost down (good for everyone) - prevent people complaining about wasting hardware they're just going to shelve (again, good for everyone) and allow the designers a little more budget to tinker with fun stuff.

I'd also guess one thing people also complain about when asked what they don't like about their buggies is spending money on nice alloy or carbon front shock towers only to see them ground away after the first flip, along with damaging their expensive shocks too. "Hang on a minute guys - can't we rework the TC-01 front end to work in a buggy and fix this for them???!!! Our customers will go nuts for this!!!" 

Using the Avante name? I understand both sides of the debate. From a nostalgic perspective I can see how people don't think it stands up to the level of the original. But equally, when the original Avante came out people slated it for being style over substance! Even today, I don't think anyone would reasonably argue that it was or is a track icon. So maybe there is a bit of romanticism involved, which I totally get, not belittling it. But then they own the Avante brand, they see this is a flagship model (certainly from a marketing perspective they've nailed it - like @Badcrumble said - 16 pages of debate just on one site and it's not even out for another 5 months! Compare that to the release of the TC-01 which is arguably more technically advanced) Kinda reminds me of the BMW Mini. People slated it saying it "wasn't a real Mini" and an abomination to the name. Yeah, maybe it was a bit of a stretch to call it "mini" especially nowadays, but it was/is a marketing success with millions of fans worldwide who think it's brilliant and love them to bits. Purists probably hate them, but they still have their original Mini's to love, so we've just ended up with two camps of fans - those who love the old, those who love the new - and maybe even a third who like them both (I'm in that camp btw!) So for me - when I look at it being an Avante - it's actually a perfect fit - it's a flawed masterpiece.

Are Tamiya making fools of us for buying the original Avante models and other re-releases for lots of money? No more so than any other company that sells goods based on nostalgia. But besides, no one is holding a gun to our heads telling us to buy them. Personally I'm happy because it enabled me to get a Sand Scorcher which fulfilled a dream, but then also enabled me to restore another SRB which was a new dream enabled by the re-release creating spares. If they hadn't re-released them I doubt half the people on this forum would have their dream buggy, be it an Avante, SRB, Egress, TF-Evo, Super Astute, Monster Beetle etc etc etc. As it is, it's opened up a world of fun for a lot of people spanning generations, so if I'm a fool, label me nuts!

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4 hours ago, Sir Crashalot said:

Probably designed to appeal to young Japanese boys, not fat, balding 40-something men with too many toys.

Hey I'm not balding and I don't have THAT many toys (yet) thank you very much :lol:

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4 minutes ago, jonboy1 said:

Tamiya will have done their market research on this: When was the last time anyone ran a Top Force or DF-03 with a stock silver can in it? First thing anyone does is buy, at the least, a sport tuned or a brushless setup. A large proportion of people don't like the Tamiya esc's so swap them out. But then if they did put one in and try to accommodate everyone it would need to be a brushed/brushless one capable of everything (and then berated for being too complicated) and cost too much. This way they keep the purchase cost down (good for everyone) - prevent people complaining about wasting hardware they're just going to shelve (again, good for everyone) and allow the designers a little more budget to tinker with fun stuff.

I'd also guess one thing people also complain about when asked what they don't like about their buggies is spending money on nice alloy or carbon front shock towers only to see them ground away after the first flip, along with damaging their expensive shocks too. "Hang on a minute guys - can't we rework the TC-01 front end to work in a buggy and fix this for them???!!! Our customers will go nuts for this!!!"

Well said.

4 minutes ago, jonboy1 said:

Using the Avante name? I understand both sides of the debate.

Same. Personally I don't like the name as I fall into the nostalgic camp. Even to me it's a silly reason, but it is what it is. I'll still get one and at least they didn't mess with my beloved HS name :lol:

29 minutes ago, djmcnz said:

...And now (since 2017) they've told us TRF is being repurposed for "entry to midrange" rather than competition and pro parts...

My heart sadderened when I read this. I noticed in the video they were using a TRF hex driver, yet they no longer sell them? I wonder if they are going to re-release tools as well? Seems odd.. why not just keep them for sale. I hope they release TRF ******s as well. Now those that have them probably won't want that, but I'd personally love to be able to get a TRF503 NIB to build and use, and, again for silly reasons really, a set of blue TRF tools. I really hate the 'collector' in me sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Wandy said:

It's only a matter of time before they ditch the whole front end on this chassis and revert back to a standard damper set up. Which, ironically, will make the Super Avante highly collectable in the future.

Ooh! Better buy two and keep one NIB as an investment! And thus, Tamiya have a sales success :D

EDIT: forgot, need a third as a box-art shelf queen!

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1 hour ago, djmcnz said:

My reason for not being overwhelmed with joy for this new chassis, and I don't need/expect anyone to buy into this, is that they seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel rather than building on prior success. Why not double down on the DB/DF chassis and just continually evolve/tweak them? This TD04 is a vastly inferior chassis to either of those based on videos alone, yet so expensive. Why?

I usually have several trains of thought going on in my head about subjects at any given moment and this is actually one I had about the Super Avante too. I had a soft spot for the DF03 myself (I'm a shaft drive kinda guy) and wondered why they couldn't have lengthened the wheelbase a bit, used better plastics, strengthened the drivetrain (better ball diffs and NO alloy gears) and maybe divorced the inner suspension mounts from the gearboxes to create something a bit more less polarizing. The Super Avante does take some interesting design decisions like the original, but its like adding a plot twist in a movie everybody's seen and knows the ending to. The original can be forgiven many of its sins as the period was still somewhat experimental (though that window was closing by then) IMO. Not hating on the Super Avante or its name (it deserves it more than the Aero Avante for instance). Its interesting and we're all talking about it, but it is somewhat puzzling. 

 

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I wonder if Land Rover forums are having the same discussion? :blink: :lol:

2020 Land Rover Defender vs Classic Defender: Is it a worthy replacement

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To me the argument against it being called something Avante is null and void after the Aero Avante and Avante Mk2. Had the name been retired after the 2001 I might've agreed, but now it's just a name like any other to me. 

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45 minutes ago, Robert5000 said:

…the Aero Avante and Avante Mk2. Had the name been retired after the 2001…

The what now? I’m sorry I really don’t know what you’re taking about. :D

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On 7/4/2021 at 6:34 AM, moffman said:

Yeah me to? I don't really understand these bodies myself probably a lot to do with the Japanese cartoon culture called "anime" (I think that's what its called) but still look pretty good to me! but to call them an abomination is a bit strong? Each to their own I suppose! The super avante is again down to the individual I think it looks really good and it's design qwerks are quite cool although not very functional but still cool.....looking forward to it myself😁

By the same reasons / opinions that many have expressed dislike the TD-4 kit, I find these kits (again my opinion) absolutely hideous and pointless. Where as most find issue with the Super Avante body, I find it clean and balanced, where as these 4 are simply odd.   

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1 hour ago, Raman36 said:

By the same reasons / opinions that many have expressed dislike the TD-4 kit, I find these kits (again my opinion) absolutely hideous and pointless. Where as most find issue with the Super Avante body, I find it clean and balanced, where as these 4 are simply odd.   

Like I say each to their own🤷‍♂️,  I'm not a fan of on road cars myself but a lot of people on here love them and I do get that? If we all liked the same thing it would be a very uninteresting world? The kits you mention are (correct me if I'm wrong) designed primarily for the Japanese market as part of the cartoon culture they have which does involve a lot of dragons and mystical characters etc......no idea what it's all about but very interesting IMO when you watch them!

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2 hours ago, Falcon#5 said:

I wonder if Land Rover forums are having the same discussion? :blink: :lol:

2020 Land Rover Defender vs Classic Defender: Is it a worthy replacement

That old landrover is all over gorgeous! The new one meh? But in about 50-60 year's if they last the time we will probably lov'em!

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22 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

Kinda reminds me of the BMW Mini. People slated it saying it "wasn't a real Mini"

It's not....

The brakes work, the heater heats, they've even got, wait for it, air conditioning!! (And not just pointing the ball duct at your face ,which was just air straight from behind the headlight...)

Anyway

The TD4 has caused a stir, and ,does finding it doesn't come with elecs, suggest its capable of modern power? 

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16 hours ago, moffman said:

That old landrover is all over gorgeous! The new one meh? But in about 50-60 year's if they last the time we will probably lov'em!

Probably because future ones will be even worse than that:lol:

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47 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

It's not....

The brakes work, the heater heats, they've even got, wait for it, air conditioning!! (And not just pointing the ball duct at your face ,which was just air straight from behind the headlight...)

Anyway

The TD4 has caused a stir, and ,does finding it doesn't come with elecs, suggest its capable of modern power? 

The heater in my original Mini was amazing after flushing all the brown sludge out, just a shame I didn't listen to the mechanic who told me what to do and didn't have a bucket ready...

It would be nice if it took a standard spur which costs a few dollars, not a specially designed part that only comes in one size and  is out of stock everywhere except the place with $30 shipping. Being able to change spur and pinion to suit motor/class/track size would be useful, even the TT02 doesn't allow it without extras and thats modern. Actually, the Super Astute does, its a shame they lost that somewhere along the way.

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On 7/5/2021 at 9:12 AM, djmcnz said:

. Why not double down on the DB/DF chassis and just continually evolve/tweak them? This TD04 is a vastly inferior chassis to either of those based on videos alone, yet so expensive. Why?

The DB and DF chassis are generic (to a degree) and Tamiya are betting there's no market for a generic mid to top-range Tamiya buggy.

A 'modern interpretation' with unique features will appeal to the larger re-re market crowd, Tamiya lifers and people who want something that isn't just another clone of whatever is successful at the moment. 
 

These people will pay a premium for something that lights their fire. Those after a generic racing buggy chassis will not.

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12 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

The heater in my original Mini was amazing after flushing all the brown sludge out, just a shame I didn't listen to the mechanic who told me what to do and didn't have a bucket ready...

Nope,  flushed, even tried different sized water pump pulleys and stats, but I'd still be over half an hour to defrost the windscreen to get a heat (ie, not demist, defrost ....the inside 😳, thats after holding a ciggy lighter under the door lock, to get in..🙄😬

You wouldn't notice any more water in the footwells anyway! I only had one that didn't leak in water, fitted that many new window seals, door seals and tubes of silicone, and just ended up drilling a hole in the drivers footwell, to let the water out...

But this is maybe where the TD4 will shine?

Annoying , quirky but ultimately,  loveable?

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On 7/5/2021 at 6:12 PM, djmcnz said:

To me, it seems like they've created a new model for the sake of a new model and then wasted the 'Avante' moniker on it. Other than creating a platform for a bunch of new, overpriced TRF Hop-Ups, I just don't get the point.

Unless, as above, it's been made to appeal to a niche Japanese market, die-hard Tamiya fatals (myself probably included), or pure suckers I'm not sure what it's actually for. 

Sounds like Tamiya business model has always been based on this.  Tamiya are plastic moulding experts.  That is where they can generate the most profitable returns, or at least cover the overheads of their operations.   Selling the little carbon fibre and alloy hop-up parts at inflated prices is like icing on the cake.   The customer has to pay once for the kit, and a second time for the hop-ups.

 

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I think the latest photo helps to understand some of the design / engineering choices that have been made, especially when you look at an overhead shot of the TC-01 in comparison.

TC01-overhead.jpg

The decision to make provision for a longitudinal Nimh stick battery combined with the inboard front suspension impacts upon the steering (as previously observed in this thread).

As we know, the suspension needs to be lifted to remove the battery. This necessitates the ‘bridge’ capturing the top of the dampers.

Presumably, the steering servo can’t be located to the right hand side of the chassis (removing the need the transverse arm) as the damper bridge obstructs the servo horn.

All this to get a buggy that jumps well carrying a stick pack? That's dedication to the cause!

 

So here comes a crazy idea for a set of hop-ups

Please note, I'm not passing this off as my idea, just trying to think through something that was suggested earlier but I can't find the post - it might be in the other thread so apologies to the poster.

I'm also no expert (as evidenced by my other posts, I certainly haven't learned anything over the last few years). 

Assuming the chassis has the capability to accept a transverse LiPo pack (I know, I know, this is a HUGE assumption), Tamiya has a ‘direct steering pack’ comprising of

 - Upper Damper Mount  - to replace the bridge mount with a piece that is fixed permanently in place

 - Steering servo mounts – to mount the servo on the right-hand side of the chassis

 - Steering turnbuckle links – revised in length for the new servo position

This gives you a steering set-up more like the TC-01 (but with the servo on the right hand side of the chassis).

 

Right, that's enough idle speculation for this morning, I'm off to make another cup of strong coffee.

 

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I pre-ordered one… looks like a lot will be possible from this chassis. I think they have it about right- can’t compete with the new cheap stuff that no-one will remember in a years time, few people really going to buy a Tamiya race buggy. So this mid ground kit with some quirky features is spot on. They can use the Avante name as they wish - it’s been used countless times now. If people are negative towards it maybe it’s just not intended for you… maybe the next kit fits the bill better. Let’s see how it does.

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22 minutes ago, Alangt4 said:

I pre-ordered one… looks like a lot will be possible from this chassis. I think they have it about right- can’t compete with the new cheap stuff that no-one will remember in a years time, few people really going to buy a Tamiya race buggy. So this mid ground kit with some quirky features is spot on. They can use the Avante name as they wish - it’s been used countless times now. If people are negative towards it maybe it’s just not intended for you… maybe the next kit fits the bill better. Let’s see how it does.

Agreed. My only doubt is the faff to remove the battery. If Tamiya announces that there is indeed a better way or the option to run a lipo across the chassis that can be removed with dismantling the steering etc, I'd pre-order one😁

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