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Tamiya 45th RC anniversary Porsche 934 RSR Vaillant version in white (TA-02SW chassis)

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7 minutes ago, middleagedgrup said:

Very nice @TurboRSR!  Quick question regarding the king pins: is 53141 the correct set rather than 53157?  Or are they both the same dimensions, and 53141 is just lighter?  Bet you can't wait to get building!

I'm not sure what the difference is, but I used 53141 for my other TA02SW as well. 53157 is out of stock or not part of product range most places, so 53141 is easier to get hold of. 
I have a TA07 Pro that I will probably start building first, it will be converted to 251mm wheelbase and fitted with a 997 GT3 body. 

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1 hour ago, TurboRSR said:

I'm not sure what the difference is, but I used 53141 for my other TA02SW as well. 53157 is out of stock or not part of product range most places, so 53141 is easier to get hold of. 

It’s a fair point - 53141 = ‘lightweight’ king pins vs. 53157 = ‘aluminum’ king pins. So what’s the difference? Are they in fact the same? And according to Tony’s TP Facebook page today/yesterday,  53157 have now been discontinued by Tamiya anyway.

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9 minutes ago, futureworks said:

It’s a fair point - 53141 = ‘lightweight’ king pins vs. 53157 = ‘aluminum’ king pins. So what’s the difference? Are they in fact the same? And according to Tony’s TP Facebook page today/yesterday,  53157 have now been discontinued by Tamiya anyway.

When I compare pictures of them it looks like the only difference is that 53157 has a countersunk on the hole on top of it while 53141 has a straight hole. 

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27 minutes ago, futureworks said:

It’s a fair point - 53141 = ‘lightweight’ king pins vs. 53157 = ‘aluminum’ king pins. So what’s the difference? Are they in fact the same? And according to Tony’s TP Facebook page today/yesterday,  53157 have now been discontinued by Tamiya anyway.

53141 'Lightweight king pins' are made of steel (I think) and are for the TA-01 (usually red) uprights. 

53157 'aluminium king pins' are made of aluminium and are for the TA-02 (usually blue) uprights. 

They are different lengths - the longer ones (53141) will work on TA02 uprights but there will be a gap under the hexagonal head. 

53157 were readily available on ebay until recently - maybe someone bought them all up when they realised tamiya was re-releasing the TA02. 

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17 minutes ago, rich_f said:

53141 'Lightweight king pins' are made of steel (I think) and are for the TA-01 (usually red) uprights. 

53157 'aluminium king pins' are made of aluminium and are for the TA-02 (usually blue) uprights. 

They are different lengths - the longer ones (53141) will work on TA02 uprights but there will be a gap under the hexagonal head. 

53157 were readily available on ebay until recently - maybe someone bought them all up when they realised tamiya was re-releasing the TA02. 

You are right, just checked mine and they are steel. Compared to the original king pins they are about 1mm longer. 

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7 minutes ago, TurboRSR said:

You are right, just checked mine and they are steel. Compared to the original king pins they are about 1mm longer. 

There you go then, another Tamiya micro-mystery solved - it’s all about the details in this game! 👍😆

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Thought Tower had shipped mine but it turned out to just be a set of axles for the TD4.  Bummer

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I think that there should be a poll for who's going to build there fancy kits😅

11 hours ago, rich_f said:

53141 'Lightweight king pins' are made of steel (I think) and are for the TA-01 (usually red) uprights. 

53157 'aluminium king pins' are made of aluminium and are for the TA-02 (usually blue) uprights. 

They are different lengths - the longer ones (53141) will work on TA02 uprights but there will be a gap under the hexagonal head. 

53157 were readily available on ebay until recently - maybe someone bought them all up when they realised tamiya was re-releasing the TA02. 

This will mean the 53157's will start to change hands for at least £1000 now😐

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On 12/1/2021 at 8:18 PM, futureworks said:

So that’s a bit odd as I emailed Joanne at Fusion on Monday checking on the order status, and had a reply yesterday basically saying they’d got a fraction of the expected  order and intimating that i would be missing out (on back order). Yet my order date was before yours, on 4th August!!!  I’m glad a decided to go for a contingency and order from Tamico as well, which I did in September, as I got my ‘shipped’ notification yesterday, but still, I’m left somewhat nonplussed now about Fusion. 

Sounds like a familiar theme. I received a similar message when I contacted them. My order was placed on 6th August (due to the fact that it was the first day I realised you could actually place an order), however I was in contact with them on 21st July and asked to be put on the list for one, which was confirmed! This was the first day it was mentioned on the Tamiyablog! I've spent thousands with them over the years and to say I'm a little disappointed is an understatement. If they were a little more open with your place in the queue it would make it a lot easier to decide whether to order elsewhere too. Considering my verbal order was confirmed the day this car was first mentioned I didn't consider for a moment that I wouldn't get one from them. Although, looking back to the Limited Edition P34...

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34 minutes ago, bindarrian said:

Sounds like a familiar theme. I received a similar message when I contacted them. My order was placed on 6th August (due to the fact that it was the first day I realised you could actually place an order), however I was in contact with them on 21st July and asked to be put on the list for one, which was confirmed! This was the first day it was mentioned on the Tamiyablog! I've spent thousands with them over the years and to say I'm a little disappointed is an understatement. If they were a little more open with your place in the queue it would make it a lot easier to decide whether to order elsewhere too. Considering my verbal order was confirmed the day this car was first mentioned I didn't consider for a moment that I wouldn't get one from them. Although, looking back to the Limited Edition P34...

I did the same (reserved via email as soon as they were announced on Tamiyablog).  I did follow up with Joanne at a Fusion about not getting one - My message at the bottom, her reply above. Seems like it was a system issue, but nevertheless bit of a let down 

293D40D0-FE53-4CA6-BE16-91D61445DB35.jpeg

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The message on the Tower Hobbies order details:

”Due to logistical congestion in California, shipments from our California warehouse are taking longer to register and show up with online tracking. We appreciate your patience and understanding. We assure you fun is on it’s way!”

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54 minutes ago, futureworks said:

I did the same (reserved via email as soon as they were announced on Tamiyablog).  I did follow up with Joanne at a Fusion about not getting one - spacer.pngMy message at the bottom, her reply. Seems like it was a system issue, but nevertheless bit of a let down 

293D40D0-FE53-4CA6-BE16-91D61445DB35.jpeg

This must have happened to my 6th August order too, and verbal confirmation on 21st July! Considering how many are now on eBay, surely they are not being sold by the enthusiasts and collectors that ordered early? There has to be a better system for this. 
 

I ordered from Tamico too so I would have one to build and one to keep BNIB. Also ordered 47479 from them - had my reservation for the 934 confirmed and will be delivered with the Carbon Chassis. It seems so simple.

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On 12/4/2021 at 3:15 PM, bindarrian said:

 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 3:28 PM, futureworks said:

That's really rather poor, and not something I would have expected from a club sponsor. Sorry to hear this. I suspect I was too late to the party with them to even have a hope of being successful. Would be nice if I could hear from them and have it confirmed either way though...

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I've ordered one from RCJaz as they are still showing as in stock. Let's see if the order actually goes through eh?

I'm pretty sure there will be a second batch of these though. In fact it feels like only half of the entire planned production run has actually been sent out. 

Unless, Tamiya have decided to start releasing kits in the way that Nike etc release their limited edition sneakers, and make them stupidly limited to drum up hype around the company & RC scene.....which would, frankly, be appalling.

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1 hour ago, Wandy said:

Is the manual for this one online anywhere yet?

I guess not. None of these TA02 specials appear to have made their way to the Tamiya Manuals download page anyway, and it's not showing on any of the other usual suspects, namely Tamico (they are just showing the Jagermeister manual as a download), Tamiyablog, and TamiyaUSA's site.

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15 minutes ago, Wandy said:

I've ordered one from RCJaz as they are still showing as in stock. Let's see if the order actually goes through eh?

I'm pretty sure there will be a second batch of these though. In fact it feels like only half of the entire planned production run has actually been sent out. 

Unless, Tamiya have decided to start releasing kits in the way that Nike etc release their limited edition sneakers, and make them stupidly limited to drum up hype around the company & RC scene.....which would, frankly, be appalling.

Even with Nike etc, if you manage to get an order in and pay you get your goods. To get a reservation in on the day that they're first mentioned, followed up by a paid for order and not get your goods is below par.

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22 hours ago, futureworks said:

There you go then, another Tamiya micro-mystery solved - it’s all about the details in this game! 👍😆

Sure, but the actual root cause for the existence of both 53141 and 53157 is a lot more complex and is to be found in the specification of the initial production Hotshot! 

Initial production Hotshot: In the design of the front suspension of the Hotshot, Tamiya ran into what is referred to as a "packaging issue" in the automotive industry.  In plain words; the clearance between the suspension arms and inside of the wheels was too small, causing rubbing. So, the holes in the uprights were made recessed, allowing for just enough clearance.  The reason for making the holes recessed and not just reducing the height of the upright was very likely that the solution with the recessed holes provided more lateral support for the 8mm ball connectors. Especially important with the 3mm threads initially used on the 8mm ball connectors. However, when the model was run, the "initial production" specification aluminium (= "soft") 8mm ball connectors ("king pins") resulted in premature wear and thus rubbing of the suspension arms inside the wheels. It was made all the worse of the 3mm threaded stud (vs. later 4mm) on the ball connectors bending easily, causing changes to the front suspension geometry and even worse rubbing between suspension arms and inside of the wheels.

Later* production Hotshot:  when Tamiya improved the design and brought out the "later production" Hotshot, the ball connectors were changed to 4mm studs, forcing the threads in the uprights to be changed from 3mm to 4mm too. Quite many other changes were made to the front suspension to improve durability and reduce rubbing, but it's the change from 3mm to 4mm that's relevant for the 53141/53157 topic, because the change predestined the Hotshot upright's "recessed hole"-quirk for repeated use in later Tamiya designs. 

Boomerang: when Tamiya designed the Boomerang, the design of the upright was changed again to improve steering geometry, but the recessed holes remained as they were required for adequate clearance between the suspension arms and the inside of the wheels.

DF-01: Tamiya then decided to carry over  the "Boomerang" type uprights to the Manta Ray (DF-01) chassis) and the recessed holes remained even though the completely different front suspension design (with C-hubs instead of the 8mm ball connectors) made them redundant. The recessed holes necessitated longer king pins than what would have been required if the holes in the uprights had been flush. 

TA01: when Tamiya designed the TA01 based on the DF-01, the uprights, C-hubs and king pins were carry-over, meaning that the TA01 and DF-01 have the same "long" king pins although not required and certainly not used if the TA01 and DF-01 had been designed completely from scratched.  

TA02: Eventually, Tamiya decided to improve the front suspension design of the TA01, resulting in longer front suspension arms and narrower uprights of a completely new design from new tooling. With this change, the recessed holes in the uprights, being completely obsolete and of no benefit, weren't incorporated in the design of the TA02 upright. Furthermore, this necessitated shorter king pins with the slight benefit of reduced unsprung mass.

When 53141 was released, the TA02 and FF01 didn't yet exist, so Tamiya didn't have to distinguish between the different length king pins when naming them, which means that they were officially named "4WD Touring & Rally Car Lightweight King Pins" although they eventually wouldn't be suitable for the FF01, TA02 and TA03.

The release of the TA02 and FF01 motivated the release of 53157 with shorter king pins, suitably named "Aluminum King Pins (4WD - TA02/FWD Chassis)", to emphasize that they were neither intended, nor suitable for the TA01.  

The later release of the TA02W (with TA01 uprights), Dirt 4WD ("Hummer" type) (also with TA01 uprights) meant that the continued parallel existence of 53141 and 53157 in the Hop-Up range was justified.

So, as a conclusion, the rubbing issue of the "initial production" Hotshot caused the different length king pins:

"Long" / 53141 type: DF-01, TA01, TA02W, TA02T, Dirt 4WD 

"Short" / 53157 type: TA02, FF01, TA02SW, TA03, TA02S

*(Later production Hotshot": I deliberately call it "later" and not "late" as at least three different specifications exist for the Hotshot. This has probably been covered in this forum before, so I won't go into details here. If my impression of not more than three specifications is correct, I reckon they can be referred to as:

Initial production => Mk. I

Later production => Mk. II, solving durability and wear issues.

Final production => Mk. III, introducing commonalities with the Supershot, probably more for cost- and simplicity-reaons than actual benefits for the customer.

 

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On 10/28/2021 at 9:38 PM, Shodog said:

Horizon hobby is still taking preorders.  Maybe their getting a huge allotment. 

One of Shodog’s last posts :( … RIP dear friend, you will be missed by us all. 

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4 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

TA02: Eventually, Tamiya decided to improve the front suspension design of the TA01, resulting in longer front suspension arms and narrower uprights of a completely new design from new tooling. With this change, the recessed holes in the uprights, being completely obsolete and of no benefit, weren't incorporated in the design of the TA02 upright. Furthermore, this necessitated shorter king pins with the slight benefit of reduced unsprung mass.

Very thorough explanation, but I wonder why then would tamiya continue to use the 'long' king pins for later models like the TL-01 and M-03 - and several more since (the reason why 53141 king pins are still readily available), even though they too have benefitted from completely new tooling and also have no need for the recessed holes in the uprights. 

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On 12/4/2021 at 10:57 PM, rich_f said:

Very thorough explanation, but I wonder why then would tamiya continue to use the 'long' king pins for later models like the TL-01 and M-03 - and several more since (the reason why 53141 king pins are still readily available), even though they too have benefitted from completely new tooling and also have no need for the recessed holes in the uprights. 

Yes, I've thought of that, but in some cases, like the CR-01, the longer "TA01-style" king pins allow for more "meat" in the C-hubs because the holes in the uprights aren''t recessed. Also, rubbing to the inside of the wheels isn't an issue because larger diameter wheels are used and/or the wheels have large offsets, allowing for more bulky C-hub and upright designs and thus longer king pins.

However, most later chassis designs that use the long king pins have C-hubs and uprights as direct carry-overs from the TL01, so it pretty much boils down to the question why the TL01, having completely new upright- and C-hub-designs, got long king pins. With "most later", I'm thinking of M03, M04, WT-01, FF02, WR-02C, WR-02G, GF-01, G6-01, WR-02CB and GF-01CB.  In case of the TL01B, it uses TA01 uprights, so the use of  the long king pins is for the same reason as described in my previous post. So, why did the TL01 get uprights with recessed holes despite being a design from scratch? I don't know.

The only other use of long "TA01-style" king pins that to my knowledge can't be easily explained, is the DF-02.  Uprights were a new design from scratch with recessed holes for (to me) no apparent reason. Can the "built in" castor angle in the DF-02 C-hub have contributed to the decision? I don't see why it should, just contemplating.

The TT-02B has uprights and C-hubs that are a carry-over from the DF-02, easily explaining the long king pins. 

In all other cases I know about where king pins the same diameter as of the TA01/TA02-king pins were used, being the logical decision, have short "TA02-style" king pins

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On 12/4/2021 at 4:33 PM, Wandy said:

I've ordered one from RCJaz as they are still showing as in stock. Let's see if the order actually goes through eh?

I'm pretty sure there will be a second batch of these though. In fact it feels like only half of the entire planned production run has actually been sent out. 

Unless, Tamiya have decided to start releasing kits in the way that Nike etc release their limited edition sneakers, and make them stupidly limited to drum up hype around the company & RC scene.....which would, frankly, be appalling.

Pleasantly surprised to discover that my order from RC Jaz has gone through and the kit is on it's way. I see that they have also put the price up on the remaining ones though.

However, Antony @europro975 at Tony's Tamiya Parts has confirmed on facebook that the UK will get two more batches of these, so I guess all of those whose pre-orders didn't happen this time around will get their kits eventually.

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1 hour ago, Wandy said:

However, Antony @europro975 at Tony's Tamiya Parts has confirmed on facebook that the UK will get two more batches of these, so I guess all of those whose pre-orders didn't happen this time around will get their kits eventually.

Nice one @Wandy, good to know!

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