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JeffSpicoli

Brushless equivalent to the 540 motors....

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Being an old guy and an old school R/C enthusiast - I know literally nothing about brushless.

 

My knowledge on brushless is -

-Low/no maintenance

-Faster

-Need special speed controllers

Does Tamiya offer a similar motor to the 540 in brushless?

I ask because as I build some of these vintage Tamiyas - I'm considering trying brushless and want to be knowledgable before I do.

I don't want to put an insanely fast brushless motor into a vintage model and have it spinning and flipping all over the place with a small press of the throttle.

Thanks!

Chris

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I look at the racing classes as a comparison.

First off, sensored brushless ESC can be programmed to add in additional timing at certain rpm. This is restricted to mod classes, and stock classes are whats called blinky which means no dynamic timing added  by the ESC. This matters as with ESC programming a mild brushless can become crazy fast

Also, brushless motors generate a lot more torque so you need to gear them higher. If you swapped a 13.5T brushless into a TT02B without chnging pinion then you will be disappointed, its basically the same as a torque tuned. However, go up in pinion gear and it becomes much faster. Gearing is key

In onroad, 21.5T blinky has replaced silvercan for stock racing. These 21.5T stock cars are faster than silvercans now because they push big gears and have a lot of static timing added. If you got a Hobbywing Justock 21.5T motor that would probably give similar performance to a silvercan, but you need to gear it differently. A TT02 with kit gearing has an FDR of about 6 or something I think. I run my 21.5T TA07 at 3.1 - 3.5. The TA07 is much faster like this, but you could get more out of the torque tuned with a bigger pinion. 

In offroad 17.5T has replaced silvercans. 

I would guess that these stock class cars probably go about 40km/h

Superstock used to be 23T brushed and are now 13.5T brushless, also blinky. Once again the 13.5T is faster. To compare my 17.5T race buggy is much faster than a Top Force with a 23T Super Stock motor (although i think tge modern 23T super stocm motors aren't as fast as the old ones, but much more reliable and don't need the comm  cutting every race meet, new brushes that often etc)

The mod. Modern mod class allows ESC programming and is crazy fast, they could easily get to 100km/h. People run from 3.5T up in onroad (4.5T - 6.5T would be the most common) and arpund 5.5T in offroad. In saying that, they are so fast I know people who run 13.5T in mod as the chassis is on the limit already anyway.

The Boomerang is great with the biggest pinion and a 13.5T motor. 17.5T would be ok too but I wouldn't go slower than that. Most Tamiya's come geared for arpund 8.5T motors which will be faster than they can handle, unless its something like a Top Force or Super Astute.

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58 minutes ago, JeffSpicoli said:

Does Tamiya offer a similar motor to the 540 in brushless?

Probably one of these in 17.5T.

s-l300-2.jpg.fca22d70d2934dff35bff3693cb6d089.jpg

1 hour ago, JeffSpicoli said:

Being an old guy and an old school R/C enthusiast - I know literally nothing about brushless.

Why not just use a silvercan? 

1 hour ago, JeffSpicoli said:

My knowledge on brushless is -

-Low/no maintenance

-Faster

-Need special speed controllers

If the kit includes an ESC it will run both brushed and brushless motors.

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If you are asking for the "equivalent" turns, this, apparently, is a question that is impossible to answer. If you do a search, you will find that there are massive flame war about this "conversion", bringing up things like timing, programming, torque, etc... 

Form what I had learnt so far (I too came from an age of brushed), was to convert KV value of the brushless back to rpm. So if you are using NiMHs, 7.2 x stated KV value to get your rpm and you can compare that to your brushed rpm. Not sure about torque though. I actually don't think I had ever seen torque values quoted for brushless. 

Someone said in another forum, take the brushed turns, divide it by 2, then step up one. So standard 27t silver can is 27/2= 13.5, step up = 15.5. I DO NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS SO PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME! 

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6 hours ago, JeffSpicoli said:

Being an old guy and an old school R/C enthusiast - I know literally nothing about brushless.

 

My knowledge on brushless is -

-Low/no maintenance

-Faster

-Need special speed controllers

Does Tamiya offer a similar motor to the 540 in brushless?

I ask because as I build some of these vintage Tamiyas - I'm considering trying brushless and want to be knowledgable before I do.

I don't want to put an insanely fast brushless motor into a vintage model and have it spinning and flipping all over the place with a small press of the throttle.

Thanks!

Chris

There's really no need to run brushless in a vintage car. Silvercans have the right level of performance, require almost no maintenance and fit well.

If you want to go fast - then go brushless. If you want to stay slow - stay brushed.

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8 hours ago, JeffSpicoli said:

Being an old guy and an old school R/C enthusiast - I know literally nothing about brushless.

 

My knowledge on brushless is -

-Low/no maintenance

-Faster

-Need special speed controllers

Does Tamiya offer a similar motor to the 540 in brushless?

I ask because as I build some of these vintage Tamiyas - I'm considering trying brushless and want to be knowledgable before I do.

I don't want to put an insanely fast brushless motor into a vintage model and have it spinning and flipping all over the place with a small press of the throttle.

Thanks!

Chris

There's lots of variables with brushless, sensored , sensorless , single winds and half turn winds, then there's different magnets.

I guess ,there where similar with brushed. You had cheap motors using cheap magnets and parts ,then you had /have the more expensive using top quality magnets, bearings etc , so doesn't tell you the full story. A 15t firebolt vs a Reedy Mr B's (15t) the Reedy would be night and day a faster /more torque motor than the £8 - 15t Firebolt, but still be 15t.

The cheaper sensorless system brushless use a feed back from one of the unenergised motor wires and the esc has a guesstimate, which way the motor is running, and which coil to energise next. This has the downside of a slight delay or juddering, as the motor looks for its position (more noticeable on the faster sensorless motors, expecially if running a low power battery), and known as 'cogging' ,and no real option to time the motor ,which is why these are measured in 'KV' which is ,RPM per volt. 

Sensored ,use a position sensor at the rear of the motor, with a sensor cable going back to the esc. This means the motor knows the exact position of the motor at any given time, so zero cogging, and also means (with a compatible esc, the cheaper escs don't...), you can programme the esc to add timing to the motor as its running (ie, @25000rpm add 12° , @30000 add another 10° ). It's possible to almost double the RPM with the timing advance. Sensored motors are measured in, 'Turns' 

As I say about the different motors and their numbers, looking at the specs doesn't tell you the full story either. 

Some motors will advertise as '4300kv' and another at '3800kv' (I've used these, as I've tested them..),the 4300 being £30 for motor&esc, and the 3800 being £189, the 3800kv is night and day quicker, bit like advertising 1:1 engines by RPM, one engine is 14000rpm , and another 9000rpm, you'd think the 14k would be quicker, but then you find out, the 14k is a 25hpchain saw engine, and the other is a 12000hp Top Fuel engine.....

 

8 hours ago, JeffSpicoli said:

Does Tamiya offer a similar motor to the 540 in brushless?

They do, but I'm sure they're just, Speed Passion motors, with a Tamiya sticker, and over double the price...

 

Less moving parts, and no brushes, means brushless are pretty much, fit and forget, with more torque and more rpm than similar priced brushed, and with modern elecs, you can programme the motor to behave any way you like.

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When you say Vintage are they Original’s or later re-re’s?

As I got curious about Brushless getting back into RC my re-re Blackfoot was the first Tamiya to get upgraded. As it had a TBLE 02 in the kit so was already Brushless compatible and was just a case of a bit of soldering (as many brushless systems you will need to be able to do, but a Tamiya motor might not?), add the appropriate length Sensor Wire (the black wire by my finger) and recalibrate the ESC to Brushless mode.

A picture paints a thousands words so…

2293AE64-09AB-42A7-AFAD-0E13B78471C3.jpg

I put a 17.5t (2200kv) Hobbywing Justock in to keep it simple and gives about the same performance as a Sport Tuned.

Brushless motor’s run cooler than brushed so theoretically should give a longer run time with less energy wasted in heat.

I believe you have a Brat and Frog @JeffSpicoli so they have gear options you can play around with to.

I find that 17.5 is plenty for this Blackfoot and is with the TBLE 02’s specs.

I don’t know if it’s just that my old NiMH battery was on its last legs, but it did used get hotter running a Brushless motor on grass than a Brushed? I’ve changed to all my batteries to LiPo now so that’s no longer a problem and LiPo give a better performance than NiMH as well.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, sosidge said:

There's really no need to run brushless in a vintage car. Silvercans have the right level of performance, require almost no maintenance and fit well.

If you want to go fast - then go brushless. If you want to stay slow - stay brushed.

This was really my initial thoughts but I thought why not investigate a little bit.  This thread has helped.

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@JeffSpicoli

I'm kind of old and slow and work on vintage cars.  While I have ample experience with brushless, I prefer running just a standard silver can Mabuchi 540 motor on my older cars.  Silver can is basically maintenance free, besides oiling the bushings from time to time, and to me, it's not about top speed but the enjoyment of watching my models in motion.  

One thing to watch out for with brushless is the immense amount of torque it has.. it can prematurely wear out your drivetrain as vintage cars were not designed to run brushless.  GL with your choice!  

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I'm reverting to brushed with a HW 1060 for outdoor cars. Sensorless brushless just isn't much fun for me. It's great for the X-Maxx army that uses throttle as an on/off switch. I went through the trouble of waterproofing a cheap sensored ESC and motor, but the esc takes up so much room. For carpet racing, I'm using a HW Justock with a 17.5T motor, and wish I had a 21.5. It's just so much faster than I'm used to.

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Jeff,

The BL will have so much torque you don’t need to know the numbers. 😜

And the BL will be faster than you think.

I have a 10.5 Tamiya BL (tble02 > tblm02) in my Frog Jumper and it’s way too fast.  I have a 3350kv(?) Turnigy Trackstar BL combo in my Bush Devil and it’s perfect with the 10t pinion. I’ve gone up to 13t but it was too fast…

Legacy Hobbies has the HobbyWing BL combos.  I just picked up a Max10 3300kv combo last week and finished installing it today in the Dragon.  Go check ‘em out…

Terry

 

 

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I don't think that there's much benefit to using a brushless motor for slower "sport" type builds, unless you want/need the additional torque. Yeah, there's less maintenance, but Torque Tuned motors are so cheap that you could buy ten for the cost of a sensored setup that drives as nicely. 

Now, if you want more speed, brushless is great. A moderately geared 13.5 is a great choice for 4WD, and a 17.5 is good for 2WD. I prefer a 2-pole sensored system for most applications, with a four-pole for heavier stuff. Sensorless systems aren't as controllable as sensored, and aren't very satisfying in lower speed stuff. 

Hobbywing Justock combos are a great deal and drive beautifully. They're my "go-to" for a basic combo.

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