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Kol__

Motor upgrade suggestions

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Hi guys,

So I've had my first runner RC car in a couple of decades for about 3 weeks now and I'm getting used to blasting and bashing it about and also getting to grips with the pistol grip (used solely sticks back in the 90's). It's a rere Mad Bull and came with an RS540SH 27T motor in the box.

I'm getting to the point now where I'd like a bit more power from the motor, but my knowledge is still a bit lacking in this area (plus a few others tbh, lol). I'm pretty much running it flat out all of the runs I'm doing now and the motor is getting so hot that it burnt my finger when picking it up carelessly earlier today!

I'm thinking an upgrade to something with a bit more power would mean more fun and less running it maxed out the whole run. However, I'd still like decent run times and it doesn't need to break any land speed records or my bank!:lol:

What do you guys recommend?

Cheers

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On 10/9/2021 at 5:47 PM, Kol__ said:

the motor is getting so hot that it burnt my finger when picking it up carelessly earlier today!

Running it that hot isn't good.  Magnets lose power when they are heated. (I would recommend installing a heatsink for the motor...also if you haven't installed ball bearings, they reduce the heat on the motor.)

@Sir Crashalot's recommendations are good.  I would hesitate to run a 10.5t motor with a 60A ESC, though (especially if you are running on grassland or otherwise rough ground where motors would get heated up).  

If you are going to use Tamiya TBLE02S ESC, 13.5t is a good motor.  It has a lot more torque, so generally using a bigger pinion is recommended, EXCEPT that Mad Bull doesn't allow it (EDIT: I was wrong, you can use 17 and 19t).  Still, it should feel like 40% improvement. The RPM at the bench (no-load) would go from 14,000 to 20,000 (only 30%).  But the silver can has weak torque, so it would actually run at 11 or 12,000 RPM.  A brushless has a lot more torque, so it would basically run at 20,000 without much loss.  

[Because you mentioned your motor getting hot, you might want to buy 2 more things if you want to use TBLE02S ESC.  A heatsink for the motor and a fan for the ESC.  If you heat the motor's wires, the resistance gets higher, like 5-10%.  If a heatsink for the motor can reduce that by half, that'd only be 2.5- 5%.  Also a cooler ESCs don't do the thermal shutdown.]

If you want a bit more, I would go with Quicrun 10BL120 ESC.  That is a 120A ESC. It can handle twice as much current as Tamiya TBLE02S.  Which means you can use a 10.5t motor.  That should give you about 23,000 RPM.  Roughly 10,000 RPM more than the stock silver can.  That is slightly beyond my comfort zone, but everybody is different.  

Oh, you'd want a steel pinion. Stock aluminum one wouldn't last long with a brushless motor.

So the cheapest route would be to use Tamiya TBLE 02S.  $45 USD for a 13.5t motor, $10 for a steel pinion.  If you don't run it in the summer, that's it.  If you run it in the summer and if the ESC happens to shut down, $8 for an ESC fan and another $8 for a motor heatsink could help.  Spend about $45 more for the Quickrun 10BL120 ESC if you want to buy a 10.5t motor. 

 

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get a steel spur right away and if your a speed demon go with a quikrun 120amper or if you keep the stock esc... Fan it to cool her down, get a nice 13.5t motor and install ball bearings all the way through the drivetrain....

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Good advice so far, but I'd like to clarify some more (really just that, please nobody get offended):

For on-road use, 10.5T motor on a decent 60A ESC is fine, for off-road, I'd probably stop at 13.5T instead, just to be on the safe side (especially with bashing in mind, as that often means some kind of grass may come into play...). Also, if you find a way to mount it, a fan for the motor is much more effective than a heatsink. I run fans on both motor and ESC for pretty much all of my cars (all except 1/12 scale pan car, come to think about it...), as is common in racing - while heatsinks are pretty much unheard of in those circles.

By the way the Hobbywing Xerun XR10 Justock G3 is a nice ESC as well, for the motor range we're talking about here (it's got built-in reverse polarity protection, for example - a feature that would have saved quite a bit of money for several people I know... ).

A 120A ESC is nice to have (and some good, affordable suggestions were made here!), but is actually a bit overkill for a mere 10.5T motor (remember, that is still "stock"/"super-stock" class material, depending on where you are). Only a few years ago, 120A ESCs were the norm even in modified class racing (i.e. 4.5T motors in on-road, 5.5T for off-road plus turbo/boost timing) and they worked just fine. Suddenly, just because newer top tier ESCs tend to have 160A, some people start to believe that's the minimum they need. Luckily it isn't, since these are anything but cheap... but I digress.  Yes, 120A ESCs  also tend to have some better quality parts/materials and maybe even software and therefore may be overall nicer than some 60A ones, but definitely not necessary for the discussed motors. ;)

 

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Thanks for the advice guys, lots to take in there. For the record, I'm currently running the Tamiya TBLE-04S ESC that came in the kit and Nimh batteries - a 3000mah and a 4500mah. Also my driving style at the moment is just based around having a blast with constant donuts and skids and wheels spins, on gravel, dirt, grass etc. so I guess that puts the motor through its paces?

I'm new to all this brushless stuff and even the turn stuff on the brushed motors is confusing, the lower the number of turns the faster the motor right? But then there's also mention of RPM's and torque, and then gearing and pinions etc. so I'm not overly clear on much of it yet at this early point in the hobby.

If I were to stay with my current ESC, could I get some gains in speed and not too much of a run time hit by upgrading to perhaps a brushed 15T motor? Or a Torque Tuned or Sport Tuned Tamiya brushed motor? Cheers

I think I'll save the higher spec ESC, brushless motors and lipo for future more technical or real speed searching builds:)

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5 minutes ago, Kol__ said:

If I were to stay with my current ESC, could I get some gains in speed and not too much of a run time hit by upgrading to perhaps a brushed 15T motor? Or a Torque Tuned or Sport Tuned Tamiya brushed motor? 

Your current ESC won't run a 15T motor. Buy a cheap Hobbywing 1060 ESC if you want to run a 15T motor.

Yes, you'll go a bit faster with a Torque Tuned or Sport Tuned motor. Run time won't be affected much.

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1 hour ago, Kol__ said:

there's also mention of RPM's and torque, and then gearing and pinions etc. so I'm not overly clear on much of it yet at this early point in the hobby.

If I were to stay with my current ESC, could I get some gains in speed and not too much of a run time hit by upgrading to perhaps a brushed 15T motor? Or a Torque Tuned or Sport Tuned Tamiya brushed motor? Cheers

15T brushed motor would use a lot of energy.  Brushless motors are faster and probably give you more runtime.  

[$18 USD upgrade:  Torque Tuned]

Torque Tuned will give you only 10%.  Many people feel that it's hardly noticeable.  But it should be absolutely safe on your ESC.  

[$19 - 28 USD Upgrade:  Sport Tuned $19 + $9 steel pinion + optional fan $8]

Sport Tuned should give you about 20%.  Tamiya instruction on the ESC may say that Sport Tuned isn't recommended.  But many people use it just fine, including myself. 

If you run the car on a hot day, like above 30C temperature, the heat can build up. The ESC will temporarily stop functioning to protect itself from overheating. You'll have to wait until it cools down to use again.  If that happens, I would buy below for $8.  Unscrew the fan and hot glue it near the ESC. Clip the metal fins on the motor as a passive heatsink.  Again, most people don't like to go out when it's really hot, that's why they don't have a problem running Sport Tuned with TBLE02S (which is older than TBLE04S you have).  But if you do experience 'thermal shutdown,' you can spend $8 to mitigate the problem.  Personally, I'd spend $9 on a steel pinion first, but the stock aluminum pinion will last a season. I wouldn't recommend a 19t pinion. Go with a 17t pinion if you are using a Sport Tuned.  

xfyQBXz.jpg

hLOYWkT.jpg

[$55 upgrade:  13.5t sensored brushless motor $45 + steel pinion $10]

TBLE04S should be able to handle a 13.5t sensored brushless.  It should feel like 40% up.  The motor itself has no brushes, no sparks. Since it's more efficient than brushed motors, the run time might be similar to Sport Tuned.  In either case, you don't have to worry too much about the run time.  (15T brushed motor will have a shortened runtime --and you do need a new ESC, like Quicrun 1060 mentioned by @Sir Crashalot.)

$40 Brushless motor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/144103541193?hash=item218d3d89c9:g:iQkAAOSwkOphQXSs

A lot of brushless motors require soldering... it's not hard, but if you are uncomfortable, you might go with a Sport Tuned for now.  

EDIT: I think you can use 17t or 19t pinion (0.8 mod or 32 pitch, 3.175mm shaft).  Brushless motors are much stronger. So, if you go with a brushless, I think 19t could give you even higher top speed without getting too much penalty in acceleration.  

This 17t pinion might fit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174602664403?hash=item28a72139d3:g:iqcAAOSwa81gBsw6

This is a 19t pinion (I wouldn't use it if you are using brushed motor)https://www.ebay.com/itm/274150098147?epid=1351252633&hash=item3fd49e84e3:g:1cEAAOSwWtZd-pgC

 

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That's awesome @Juggular, thanks mate. Most informative from an educational perspective as well as a list of the various options open to me. Nice one you LegendB)

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Good advice given already.  I run a 3500kv 60A cheap brushless setup in my Mad Bull and its been great.  Along with a steel pinion gear haven't broken a thing on it and it's quick.  Probably too quick, but its a ton of fun. The Mad Bull is a great RC, I love it. 

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Haha @87lc2, yeah the Mad Bull is great fun! ...and after a few runs now I'm starting to predict it's quirky handling;)

Do you know what the standard pinion gear is with regard to number of teeth and pitch? Cheers

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Standard pinion for the Mad Bull is 32p 17t.  I'd recommend a Robinson Racing steel pinion.  

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That should work fine in the Mad Bull.  Can technically put it in anything that uses a 540 sized motor, but will be overkill in some applications.  For example, I wouldn't throw that in a stock Grasshopper...should be OK in the Bull though.  I run a 3500kv and its a handful, but sure is a lot of fun.  

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Just remember, an 8.5T brushless motor has not only RPM but also quite a bit of torque coming with it. I have no idea what the gears in that car can take. Also charefully check the motor temps while running... with these large tires the gear ratio might be too long for such a motor (so it could potentially overheat rather quickly...). Not saying it's impossible to use it, but the car is certainly not made for this kind of power, and you have to be careful when trying.

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If you want to keep to the "true spirit" of the car by staying brushed while getting "a bit" more speed, the suggested TT or ST are a good and cheap way to go. If you are like me, want a little more class, may I suggest a Dirt Tuned, Lightly Tuned (both a little faster than stock with good runtime), FL Tuned (similar to stock with great runtime) or an older GT Tuned (on par with ST). 

Or you can go mad and put in a TZ (as I did) or worse and see your tyres disappear right in front of your eyes (if you run on tarmac). 

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Thanks guys. I'm wondering if I can get hold of a 10.5T or 13.5T Cheetah motor instead and run that. I think the 8.5T might turn the Mad Bull gears to mush, but that's more of a fear than based on any experience of course. I do have a spare Mad Bull rear end now as well, so could replace parts if the turn to mushy dust.

I just received this motor today in my latest eBay purchase, an ORV chassis. Would it be any good with the current the Tamiya TBLE-04S ESC I have in the car? I think it is a 19T?

iAZylQP.jpg

Maybe a bit of value in the Dyna Tech 0R1 motor from the brief research I've done? However, it does have some mild corrosion to the underside, could probably be polished up though I think.

 

 

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I can only speak from my own experience with the Mad Bull gearbox (3500kv motor on 2S Lipo), but that gearbox is pretty stout and overbuilt.  It's all pretty heavy duty 32p gearing in there, I think you'll be fine.  With an 8.5t you'll have to worry more about controlling the Bull more than tearing up the gears...just my opnion. 

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56 minutes ago, 87lc2 said:

I can only speak from my own experience with the Mad Bull gearbox (3500kv motor on 2S Lipo), but that gearbox is pretty stout and overbuilt.  It's all pretty heavy duty 32p gearing in there, I think you'll be fine.  With an 8.5t you'll have to worry more about controlling the Bull more than tearing up the gears...just my opnion. 

Yeah, thanks @87lc2, I do appreciate your point, great input again and a valued opinion. I do still want to be able to enjoy a manageable Mad Bull, at least whilst I'm getting to grips with controlling an RC car again and don't want to smash to bits with some sort of high speed impact with a tree in the woods or whatever!:lol: I think my current goal is to gain just a bit more power to get up some more acceleration and top speed, and do some higher jumps etc!:)

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1 hour ago, Kol__ said:

 

I just received this motor today in my latest eBay purchase, an ORV chassis. Would it be any good with the current the Tamiya TBLE-04S ESC I have in the car? I think it is a 19T?

iAZylQP.jpg

 

Going by turns alone, it will not be suitable for your ESC. Someone who knows better will step in and correct me if I am wrong. 

Performance wise, it is somewhat close to the modern TZs, but more inefficient (19T vs 23T) and less torque. 

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2 hours ago, Kol__ said:

Thanks guys. I'm wondering if I can get hold of a 10.5T or 13.5T Cheetah motor instead and run that. I think the 8.5T might turn the Mad Bull gears to mush, but that's more of a fear than based on any experience of course. I do have a spare Mad Bull rear end now as well, so could replace parts if the turn to mushy dust.

I just received this motor today in my latest eBay purchase, an ORV chassis. Would it be any good with the current the Tamiya TBLE-04S ESC I have in the car? I think it is a 19T?iAZylQP.jpg

Maybe a bit of value in the Dyna Tech 0R1 motor from the brief research I've done? However, it does have some mild corrosion to the underside, could probably be polished up though I think.

 

 

Get a HobbyWing 1060.

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The FDR - factoring in a Mad Bulls tyres - will make anything below 10.5t a rapid race to burnout 

And even then more an uncontrollable missile not fun drive 

Agree with @Juggular - 13.5t + TBLE 04 👍

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